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East Lothian Licensing Board
Thursday, 24th September 2026 at 10:00am

 
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Gillie, Linda - 0:00:00
Good morning everyone and welcome to this meeting of the East Lothian licencing board on the 24th of September
2026
Gentle reminder before we start the meeting
Can I remind all?
Fees for licences will be due on the 1st of October and just remind people to try and pay on time
So can we move to the roll call, please?
Gillie, Linda - 0:00:27
The public business of this meeting has been recorded and live streamed via the council's
website in order to allow members of the public's access to the democratic process in East Lothian.
East Lothian licencing board is the data controller under the data protection act 2018.
Data collected as part of the recording will be retained in accordance with the council's
policy on record retention and the website of this meeting will be publicly available
for up to five years. I'll now take a record of attendance.
Councillor Bruce. Present.
Councillor Dugdale. Present.
Councillor Gilbert. Present.
Councillor Maguire. Present.
Councillor McMillan. Present.
Can I ask if anybody has any declarations of interest?
Thank you.
Chair, with apologies, I don't have a declaration of interest but I would like for transparency
sake to make it clear that because of my economic development and tourism role, I have had a
number of visits and meetings with officers concerning matters where
Caffrey Mill has been present in its role of tourism, East Lothian Food
and Drink, Visit East Lothian and as members of the group which organised
the global
agritourism event that was hosted in Aberdeen and throughout Scotland,
although not in East Lothian earlier this year, but that has been in my cabinet and spokesman's role.
But with officers present, thank you.
Thank you for that John. Do we have any apologies?
No apologies. Can I pass over to Alan to take us to the item please?
Thank you chair and item number one minutes for approval East Lothian licencing board 27th of August 2026

1. Minutes for Approval - East Lothian Licensing Board, 27 August 2026

Thank you
Pity approve chair
Minutes of the last meeting are we happy to approve the minutes of the last meeting happy to approve
Thank you for that
I'll take us to item number two. So we've got item number two which is premises licence for Bonnie Italia
119 to 121 High Street Dunbar and

2. Premises Licence - Bonnie Italia, 119/121 High Street, Dunbar, EH42 1ES

I believe we've got
Gordon Emsley his agent and
His clients an applicant Graham and Angela Hill
Mr. Emsley, just ask if you could if you want to say a few words on the application and introduce your clients
Good morning Your Honours. The application for you this morning
concerns Boni Italia as you've outlined 1192121 High Street
Dunbar and I'm joined by Graham and Angela who are going to be the operators
of the premises. The premises may be familiar to the board and it's operated
as Umberto's restaurant for many years before changing hands approximately five
years ago and has since accommodated a different number of food offerings. I
understand the premises have previously been licenced. For your period of closure
Graham and Angela now intend to open the restaurant and open the business as an
Italian themed restaurant and the restaurant will offer breakfast, lunch
and evening menus and the aim is of meeting the needs of the Dunbar residents
and visitors. There are some menus attached there which just gives you a
kind of broad idea of the menu offering. The restaurant will provide 52 covers in
total. All matters are sought in the application fall within the board's
and policy. Both Graham and Angela have extensive hospitality experience. Graham
is a chef and has more recently worked at Bellhaven Brewery. Angela's worked in a
number of hospitality roles for many years having previously worked at
Umberto's earlier in her career and it brings a particular connexion to these
premises. Significant investments have been made in the business to bring Angela and
Graham's plans to fruition. I'd like to clarify that it's been noted in the LSO's
report that I am currently named as the premises manager. That was purely as part
of the purposes to get the application competent. A variation will be lodged
this afternoon if the board were minded to grant that to remove me from any
responsibility from the operational challenges it may present. We've
note there's no objections been received by Police Scotland. We fully
acknowledge the licenced standards officers comments regarding the
importance of maintaining robust licencing procedures in accordance with
the Licence Scotland Act 2005. In summary this application reflects
and Angela's commitment to restoring a restaurant that is fondly remembered by
many residents. Their aim is to establish a high -quality food offering with a
sustainable long -term future and a positive contribution to the local
community and I respectfully commend the application to your members and I await
any questions. Thank you. Thank you. Can we hear from a Licence and Standards
Officer please. Thank you, good morning everyone. So I have visited the
I have liaised quite a lot with the two applicants, Angela and Graham.
The site notice was correctly displayed and the premises wasn't in operation yet but hopefully
soon will be with the grant of the licence.
On speaking to them I find them very knowledgeable and they are aware of their responsibilities.
Mr Emzley has covered the point about the premises manager which I am happy with.
No further comments other than they support this application.
and are there any comments from Police Scotland please no comments from Police
Scotland
Thank You Carlo. Do members have any questions?
Councillor Mingus, Leanne. Thank you chair so it's just one question for me there's
on sales and and clearly in your operating plan I can see where that sits
There's also off sales covered, can I get a bit of understanding why off sales are covered on that?
Off sales are covered mainly for two reasons.
I know it might be quite rare but there's an element where customers may not finish their bottle of wine
when they're having dinner and may wish to take it off site.
I know that might be a rare situation but equally where it does come in, particularly with Italian flavour,
if they source product that is not available in other supermarkets
then customers may wish to request to buy a bottle, I take that away. So it's
purely for the purposes of that, it's not for having any major off sales offering
in any way shape or form. Excellent thank you. I did think about, I thought about the half empty bottle or what not, but it's really, especially my pals anyway.
Thank you.
Thank you, Leanne. Are there any other questions?
OK, we'll move on then to comments. Do we have any comments?
Councillor Mingus, Leanne.
I'm happy to support this. A wee added bonus for me this morning was your menu.
I am all over the bonny breakfast. It sounds delicious.
I think reopening the restaurant in Dunbar, I think it's important for the town.
It's important for wider East Lothian, you've got great things all they do there.
You've got the community bakery, you've got the crunchy carrots, so if you can also source
local goods then you're keeping the local economy going.
I'm delighted to hear the answer on the off sales and wish you all the luck and I will
be supporting the application today.
Thank you chair.
Thank you Lynette and online I see you've got Councillor McMillan.
John would you like to come in?
I think my buttons are not being pressed properly.
I just wanted to echo Jan's remarks.
I think the name in itself is worthy of comment remarking on the close ties between Scotland
and Italy.
I think the importance of our history is clear to all of us and seeing the revival of a well -known
restaurant in a thriving town is so important.
I think the points about East Lillian food and drink being sustainable, adding to community,
adding to wellbeing and helping build local community.
It's wonderful to hear the history of both applicants and to have them here and all I
can do is echo our licencing standards officer remarks of no objection and
really welcoming the business. Thank you chair.
Thank you John. I don't see anyone else wanting to come in.
So I will just echo the comments that my colleagues have made there. I think given the rate of growth around East Lothian and all our towns,
I think it's important that we have established much like this for people to go out and enjoy themselves.
and it's great for something as well as coming in like this quality.
And just as a comment, I'm glad you've managed to clarify that you're not diversifying now
and we will lose your benefit on the legal side.
So we'll move then swiftly to the roll call vote.
This is the roll call vote for premises licence for Bonny Italia.
Councillor Bruce Grant Councillor Doug Deal happy to grant
Councillor Gilbert Grant
Councillor McGuire Support
Councillor McMillan Sorry John I didn't catch that
Grant Thank you
Councillor Menzies Happy to give out
Thank you and that's unanimous
// Thank you.
Move on to the next item, please.
// Thank you.
// Thank you, anyway.
All the best.
// Just while we're waiting on Mr. Emslie leaving, chair, can I just pick up something
I should have said at the beginning of the meeting about item number 6, which is the
chief constable's report.
In terms of the chief constable's report, members will be asking if we could take that
to the next board and due to the current police representation here at the board today generally
representing West Lothian and if there's are questions that come up and you may have better
response from next board where we have our police licencing standards officer for East
and at the board to ask questions if members are happy to do that.
Thank you. Taking that slightly out of order apologies but moving

3a. Transfer of Premises Licence - Crolla's Italian, The Courtyard, 1 Station Road, lnveresk, Musselburgh, EH21 7PQ

title number three transfer of premises licence we've got 3A cruel as left
how we in the courtyard one station road in Varesk Musselburgh and got Mr.
Mr. McDonald representing and we've got Mr. Joseph Crulla online and Jack Robinson
which is chair to the account for Avair online as well. Mr. McDonald I'll pass over to you to make
representations to the board.
Sorry, Your Honours.
Yes, first, Alison McDonald appearing on behalf of the Liquidator and I think you mentioned
that Jack Robinson from the Liquidator's office is in attendance and Joe Crowler is also present.
Now Joe was the director of the company prior to liquidation and just in case there was
any background required I suggested that he attend as well.
This is a transfer application and it's a transfer application Your Honours to transfer
the licence for the the previous crullers Italian at Station Road to the liquidator.
The licence at the moment is in the name of a company known as a Courtyard and
Market Trader Company Limited of which Joe was a director and that company is
now in liquidation and liquidators were appointed in July. In that situation from
legal point of view there is a period of 28 days to lodge a transfer application
to the liquidator from the date of liquidation. This was not done within
the 28 day period but there is a provision under the legislation to allow
late transfers under section 135. Section 135 permits a licencing board to
relieve an applicant or other party to proceedings before the board of any
failure to comply with a procedural provision. This applies if the failure is
due to mistake, oversight or other excusable cause. If the board considers it
appropriate in all the circumstances to relieve the failure the board can agree
to the transfer and that is what we are requesting the board to do today. Just
with regard to some background here your Honours, as I say the company that held
the licence was a courtyard and market trading company limited. We were notified
of the manager leaving on 10th July and we notified the board of the manager
leaving which you must do within seven days on that day. We explained to Mr.
Krolla that there was a six -week period to appoint a new premises manager.
However, the Krolas had family issues at that point. Joe's father -in -law died on the 11th.
His wife had already been out looking after her father for several months and Joe himself flew
out to Italy on the 11th, the day after. Joe helped with the organising of the funeral,
tidying up his father -in -law's business etc. We had been trying to contact him to
ask for details of the new premises manager which of course who of course
has to be appointed within a six -week period from 10th July and we weren't
able to get hold of any of the Croler family. On 17th August we were contacted
by Mr Krolla on his return from Italy. He said that the premises were closed, that they
were trying to find a new tenant, they were in negotiations with a new tenant,
but at the moment the premises were closed and therefore there was not a
desperate rush to appoint a new premises manager. At that point it was also
mentioned that the company had gone into liquidation which we had not been aware
of. We explained the situation to Joe that it was now too late just by a week
or two but it was too late by a week or two to launch the normal transfer. I
explained about this procedure under section 135 that we could try and do it
late. Mr. Krolla arranged a meeting with the Liquidator that day or the day after
and the Liquidator then contacted us to say that they would like us to submit
this application to transfer the licence to themselves. That is basically the
your honours. I think the police have confirmed that the liquidator has no
convictions which we didn't anticipate but that was that was their
understandable input. Licencing standards officers do not normally have an input
into transfers but obviously I have discussed this matter with with Karen
over the period. We are asking the board to accept that there was a mistake on
the part of Mr. Crowe advising ourselves and the liquidator of this situation.
Firstly ourselves with regard to the liquidation and secondly with regard to
the liquidator the time limits involved and to ask that the licence be
transferred. Their invertency was due to the illness and then the death of Mr.
Crowley's father -in -law, the anxiety this caused the family and their absence from
this country for a considerable period of time over six weeks during that
period. He made a mistake and accepts that. This resulted in an
invertence of not knowing what had happened and not submitting the
application. There is a potential new tenant lined up but obviously this that
has been put in hold at the moment until the licence situation is decided. We very
much would ask the board to agree to grant this which allows the licence to
remain in force and for the new tenant in due course to take entry and operate
these premises again which have been closed for some time now.
If the board were unable to, unwilling to do that, it would mean starting off all over
again with a new licence application which could take some time.
I'm happy to answer any questions, Your Honours.
I'm sure either Mr Krollo or the Liquidators representative would be as well.
Thank you.
I will ask police Scotland if they have any comments.
No adverse comments from police Scotland.
Thank you.
As Mr. McDonald said, I won't ask the LSO because they don't normally comment on these
transactions.
Thank you, Carlo.
I will open it up to members.
Do members have any questions?
Councillor Macmillan, John, would you like to come in?
Mr McDonald, thank you as always for the quality of your presentation.
Might I just ask either Mr Koula or Mr Robinson, how likely do they think it is that with the
festive season in particular and autumn and winter party season drawing on that
the premises are likely to open for the coming season.
Hello hi, I'm Joe Prolla, I'm happy to answer that. I think it would be very likely that if
everything got put into place and rest of the trading against on Christmas period.
Thank you and Mr Crowe, can I just extend our condolences and sympathies for your loss.
Thank you.
Again for Mr McDonald's explanation of the of the factors, but thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you John.
Are there any further questions?
Anyone else?
I'll open it up to comments then.
Are there any comments?
I'm sorry, but Council Member...
Oh, my goodness, it's really Ann.
Thank you, Chair.
I just wanted to say I have no questions because I really do appreciate Mr McDonald's full and quite forthright explanation there and no excuses just making sure that there's no hiding place for that.
So I'll be really clear, I'm minded to grant this as an exception because of the circumstances
and that's partly because of the clarity and the forthright way that it was presented today.
Thank you, Geoff.
Thank you, Rhian.
Councillor Dugdale, Fiona.
Thank you, thanks very much.
Similarly, I just want to say thank you for the clarity in the presentation, I didn't
have any questions and because of that and you mentioned like a mistake being
made and and also the circumstances in which that mistake was made so I'd like
also to pass condolences to the family in this situation and also be happy to
support this application thank you
Thank you, Fiona. No further comments. Sorry, Councillor Milling.
Thank you, George. I agree with Leanne and Fiona around the quality of the presentation.
I think, however, we do have to reinforce the fact that we operate in a regulated industry.
There are rules, there are policies, there are laws to follow.
And I think that while I am also minded to grant, it is just a reminder to everyone that,
you know, you yourself talked about needing to remind people about paying licencing fees.
I think when we work in this industry and, you know, people are fortunate enough to have
like Mr. Emsley, who we've seen earlier, and Mr. McDonald, we need to use them to make
sure that all the regulations, all the laws, all the policies are fulfilled and complied
with. And I do seriously send my condolences, but I do think that operators and licences
need to be mindful of those key dates, key rules and regulations. So I will be
happy to grant but I think that just that reminder is really necessary to
everyone operating in the industry and I think we need to be reinforcing that
fairly frequently. We do a licencing board but maybe other times as well.
Thank you chair.
Thank you, John.
And I would agree with the comments you've just made there, John, that we work in a regulated
industry and we have to adhere to that.
But equally, I thank Mr. McDonald, as others have done, for the clarity and the straightforward
reasoning behind it all.
As always and as ever, you leave us with no room for questions, Mr. McDonald.
It's always laid out for us.
And like my colleagues, I'm happy to support this application as well in the acceptable
circumstances.
and extend the whole boards condolences to Mr. Pequot and his family.
So could we move forward to the roll call vote please.
This is the roll call vote for the transfer of premises licence.
Councillor Bruce.
Then.
Sorry could you repeat that?
Grant.
Thank you.
Councillor Dugdale.
Grant.
Councillor Gilbert.
Grant. Councillor McGuire. Grant. Councillor McMillan. Grant. Councillor Menzies. Grant.
That's also unanimous. Thank you Mr. McDonald. My pleasure.
Thank you.
Just on the general point of this, that is the forgiveness of the 135 so the transfer
can go forward.
Just a quick reminder to Mr McDonald and his clients, the annual fee has not been paid
yet for this one.
It is going to be a common theme today.
Well, fortunately Joe's listening so he now knows.
Understood.
Take us to the next item. Mr O 'Donnell I think you're still in the hot seat for this.

3b. Transfer of Premises License - 102 New Street, Musselburgh., EH21 6JQ

We are 3B102 New Street, Musselburgh and we have Mr. McDonald again and we have his client as well.
Mr. McDonald I will pass over to you to make a presentation and if you could introduce your client as well.
I'm with Helen, Helen Wong who you will of course have met last month as well.
I'll just proceed.
Thank you.
Yes, Helen was with me last month as you may recall, Councillor, along with her mother
and her mother at the time was the premises licence holder and your honours understandably
I think considered that it was no longer appropriate that Mrs Wong be the premises licence holder
and action was taken on that basis.
I think your clerk has explained the legal basis of this application.
As I mentioned last month we were happy for the licence to be transferred to
Helen and this is now an application to transfer the licence to Helen in terms
of your clerk's explanation. I think the background I can answer any any
questions your honours with regard to the background but I'm not going to go
over it all over again. Helen's a chartered accountant so she's used to
administration deadlines etc. At last month's board meeting although he didn't
speak we also had the tenant and I think I explained at that point that the
tenant was doing a personal licence training course which he has now done
and his application has been submitted to the Edinburgh board. Unfortunately the
Edinburgh board for two months did not issue any personal licences because of
festival so applications that were lodged at the beginning from the beginning of
July are only now being issued so we hope that his licence will be issued
within the next month or so. I discussed the situation with Helen if she is to be
the premises licence holder and said that although she has some knowledge of
licencing law that it would be better if she had a better understanding of
licencing law and as a result of that she agreed to do a personal licence training course
as well. She has completed that, she has passed the exam and when we receive the certificate
which we haven't yet then an application will be lodged for that as well.
I think both the Wongs as premises licence holders and the manager who was here were
perhaps were not aware before of the responsibilities and ramifications but they certainly are now.
They know how serious I think Councillor McMillan earlier made it clear that there are rules
and regulations which the licenced trade, if they want the privilege of a licence, must
comply with and I think that is very much appreciated and very much understood and Helen
appreciates the responsibilities that she will have as does the premise manager.
Just looking at the comments, the police have no objection as such but I think understandably
they said they would like to know there is a better level of licencing legislation than
there was before.
I think both the premises, proposed premises manager and the proposed premises licence
holder have completed recently personal licence training courses and will obtain personal
licences. I think also they've learnt a lot from this experience and how serious
this is and how you cannot disregard it or treat it lightly and they will assure
the board that this will not happen again. It's not just a case of paying the
annual fee and carrying on training. There is paperwork, there is the way that
premises are run. There is the licencing object or there are the licencing
objectives. Now I'll just mention I'll just go through very quickly the five
licencing objectives. Councillors just to give you these have been explained and
obviously they knew with regard to their training but just to summarise under the
five licencing objectives but obviously there are other points as well.
preventing crime and disorder. There were two issues here first of all the fact
that they were not complying with paperwork and I think all parties now
are very aware of the paperwork that is required and we will assist them with
that. We have prepared the notices, we would provide a certified copy of the
licencing documentation and we would make sure that as and when the premises
start selling alcohol again that all that paperwork is in place. There was I
think the catalyst for this was possibly some noise from outside people outside I
think there was references to parties and so on and I think again this is very
much understood that they are not allowed to take their drinks outside and
drink in public and that has been hammered home to the tenant. Public
health this is a restaurant alcohol is ancillary it's not a bar low alcohol
non -alcoholic drinks available but the main reason that people come here would
come here would be to eat but alcohol from a commercial point of view is is
is important and I suppose if the place was not licenced it would be BYOB, which our clients
would rather it was not.
People would be drinking on the premises, in any case our clients would rather be selling
alcohol that's complementary to the food that they're selling and also that I think generally
Quite often it's a case that BYOB does encourage people to drink more.
Securing public safety, the safety of customers and staff is paramount to the
tenants and our client. They will make sure they're looked after both in terms
of the condition of the premises, just making sure there are no issues that
would cause problems for the customers in general and of course the same
applies to staff, safety of staff. Nuisance, there is background music played
but there's no reason to think that that escapes and causes any problems with
residents and similarly that music should not be heard from outside the
premises but public nuisance we do not consider should be an issue here it
wasn't before. Children and young persons is a family -friendly restaurant young
persons are catered for, the suitable food for them to eat, it's table service
nothing inappropriate should take place. That's very briefly the five
licencing objectives but I'm more than happy to answer any queries that board
members may have with regard to these. Your licencing standards report
basically just explains about the hearing that Mrs Wong had a
responsibility with regard to that and the result of the hearing
which as I say we accept. Helen has confirmed that she has learned a lot
from that and that she must monitor the premises and keep up -to -date cheques. She
will be available to discuss any issues with the police and the licencing
standards officers should they arrive, should they arise, hopefully they won't
but again the manager will be in hand to answer any operational questions as well.
By way of summary your Honours, the board's decision last month was totally
understandable. Mrs Wong was clearly not in a position to perform the function
and further disclosed that she was quite often abroad. Helen is resident in Glasgow,
she has her own accountancy firm. She can be in hand, she can come through here and
cheque things as and when needed. I think she's told me that as someone who's just
opened her own firm she doesn't get away in many holidays anyway so she's always
available. Again perhaps like the last time this would be a case of keeping a
licence alive your honours, keeping the premises open which hopefully it would
continue to be and not having to start from scratch all over again. The
responsibility is the parties involved, the tenant and the wongs, they put their
hands up and totally accept that responsibility and their failures but
they would like the board to give them another chance. Helen would like the
chance to be the premises licence holder and show that she can that these
premises can operate without causing issues to your licencing standards
officer to the police and to yourselves and they apologise sincerely for the
trouble that they've given all of you over the last months happy to answer any
questions. Thank you. First for questions. I'll go to Police Scotland to ask if they've got any questions. Any comments?
I'm aware that PC Upton visited the premises on the 16th of July this year
with LSO. At this time he established that no DPM had been in place since 2022
and also that there was no personal licence holder working at the premises
and nobody on the premises had been trained. It was also noted that none of
the signage required under the Licencing Scotland Act 2005 was up and none of the
required documentation such as training records, refusals, books and instant logs
was behind the counter. The upshot of that is I understand that the LSO is
taken the premises to review to be heard and that PC Upton was taken for
action in relation to a contravention of a section 1 licence in Scotland Act
2005. There's also notes to see that the licence was revoked, potentially revoked
last month but I've not got full clarification on that.
// Thank you.
Just to clarify for Police Scotland, the licence was revoked in terms of legislation there
is provision to put in a transfer within a certain period of time which Mr. McNeil did
for his client.
So this is the application that's before us today.
It's following the revocation and considering whether or not to accept the application and
transfer. I'll ask our LSO if they've got any comments.
No comments from the LSO, no mechanism for it in the legislation.
Thank you, Mr McDonald. Do the members have any questions?
I will go to Councillor Mingus.
Thank you, Chair.
It is just to ask possibly Helen directly, how often do you plan to be at the premises?
Because it was a major stumbling block and part of the reason for the revocation was no oversight
and this application is in your name.
So given that and given that you bearing the legal responsibility, how often do you plan to visit?
So I actually attend Edinburgh on a monthly basis anyway to visit my clients in Edinburgh
so whilst I'm in Edinburgh I was planning just to pop into the restaurant on a monthly basis
just to cheque in with the tenant but we are in constant contact now anyway so if need be
I could come through more often. And is there now a training regime so I understand you've
done your personal licence as has the tenant and that's great but we forget things we're
and we get busy so is there a training regime, is there a way to do cheques and
balances to make sure that those reminders are always there for instance
have you sourced the admin needed to make sure the signage is right to make
sure the public are aware that the signage is there for the reminder for
them as well as the staff and things like that is that all in hand now?
I have prepared all of the signage and I will make sure that the tenant has
it and displays it. We don't send the signage for putting up unless there is a licence.
I think the problem is if you put signs up people think that you're selling alcohol and
until the premises, as and when the premises are entitled to sell alcohol there will be
signage in place but I wouldn't want it in place before then. So I have it, we prepared
it, we prepare them for clients and we will make sure that they have it and we'll make
refusals log and that because if and I'm a quick learner so I'm relatively new to
licencing I'm a quick learner I won't make the same mistake twice and that
that's what I would expect from everyone else so what I would want to see is that
you have things like a refusals log and that if our LSO should have a visit
that there will be something logged in there and it will be clear then fed back
to us that there is ongoing licencing obligations being met because an empty refusals log to
me as someone who's worked on it is a clear sign that that's not happening so I don't
just want to see a refusals log I want to be assured that there's ongoing training I
want to be assured that there will be ongoing cheques and balances that there will be refusals
and that these are all being handled correctly and I know that Mr McDonald will have given
the training and we'll have everything there and just looking for a bit of
assurance that that will be put in place in practise not just now, not while it's
fresh, but ongoing in years time. I think Councillor there are clients and the
tenant in particular is very aware that these premises will be monitored very
closely as and when they open both from from Karen, Iorel, Esso and from the
and so first of all they have to make sure that they are a hundred percent
correct in terms of paperwork and you've mentioned various other items when they
when they start selling alcohol but also that once that is in place it has to
stay in place I mean you're absolutely right that they cannot lower their
standards from the high standards that they will have when they open so I told
I totally accept that. But once you have notices up, the notices should be up and there's no
reason to take them down. So I think it's just the important thing is to set up correctly.
Hopefully your licencing officer would agree. The important thing is to set it up 100 % and
Then it should be easy to keep it in place.
That is what we would be aiming for.
Thank you.
I just want to add there as well, you mentioned you are a fast learner.
I would also say I am quite a fast learner.
I run my own firm.
I am an extremely organised person.
Previously my mother was doing it all.
It is only the last couple of years I have taken charge of her affairs.
Unfortunately, the tenant moved in in 2022, which prior to me taking over this, so I was
not aware there were any issues.
Now that I am aware there are issues involved, I have now done the exam, I know exactly what
is expected of me and I will assure you that this will be monitored going forward.
Thank you.
Thank you, Leanne.
Online I have got Councillor McMillan.
John, would you like to come in?
Thank you.
And Helen, thank you for that. It is reassuring. But given that you work in a business where often risks are prevalent and need to be managed and controlled and mitigated,
what would you say are the biggest risks around taking over the new business and how will you actually manage them given the area,
Musselburgh, a new tenant.
And I'm just wondering in terms of your business plan,
going ahead, how you plan to really make sure that you're
you're going to lead, manage, control it well.
So do you mean as in my own business?
No, and in the new tenancy,
when it's set up under the new management arrangements.
Oh you mean as in me with a new tenant? Yes. Okay, I guess as previously I just
do you mean I wasn't involved in it that much because the tenant paid his rent I
was not aware there was any issue so I've never really kind of dealt with it
but now that there's this all come to light I will make sure it's all managed
in a kind of timely matter. I said I run a business in Glasgow I deal heavily in
hospitality trade. I am aware of these rules anyway. Is that what you are asking me?
I was wondering if you had any thoughts in terms of the specific business in Musselburgh,
what you know about Musselburgh. Colleagues in the Council are always concerned about
social behaviour. Mr McDonald has outlined the five objectives and how he thinks that
your own leadership and the new tenant will deal with those, but are you any particular
thoughts yourself on what might need to be done in terms of hard, concrete ways? It's
really a follow up to Councillor Mignes' question.
Yeah, so your question is how much do I know in Muswellborough? So I was born and raised
in Muswellborough and I actually only moved to Glasgow for work about three years ago,
So I'm very much East Loughborough and over -eaten really, really well.
A lot of my clients are based in this area, so I know the area really well.
I think that restaurant has great potential.
Like my mum and dad bought it when I was quite young, maybe like 10, 15 years ago.
And we've always wanted to develop it into something better.
This tenant moving in in 2022 ran out of a Chinese restaurant, I think has done well.
But there's potential for it to get better.
I do think Mossoper needs a Chinese restaurant of a good standard.
I will continue to help him achieve that objective.
Thank you.
Thank you John.
I have got Councillor Gilbert.
Neil, would you like to come in?
Thank you.
Again, it's probably just a follow -up question.
It's as the new licence holder,
you said you'd be visiting once a month.
If there was a particularly difficult period
or the tenant was having problems,
how much time would you be able to set aside
from your current work to visit the premises
and sort that out?
So, well, I'm self -employed.
I've got my own firm.
I've got about 23 staff,
so I can come in and out as and when required.
like today I've just taken a day off to be here with you today so I can put as
much time or as little time into this as I see fit and given the scale of this
issue and obviously me and a tenant are both new to this I will spend more time
on this definitely and to make sure it's right going forward and I will come
through more than once a month if need be. As Ms. McDonald said I never go on hold
that I'm always working so I'm always here and available if they need me.
Thank you that's reassuring. Thank you Neil.
No one else online. I have a question but first I'd like to say I share
Councillor Mainsy's concerns regarding training is one thing and
putting that training into practise is another thing and reservations about you
yourself being on site once a month. Again, for me, it's maybe a bit concerning, especially in the early stages.
I have a question for Police Scotland if I may. Could I ask you, in your opinion and suitability of Ms Wong, to have a licence?
I also have the same reservation in relation to the once a month on site.
And obviously given the previous issues that I highlighted, so there are some concerns from Police Scotland.
regarding the limited attendance of Ms Wong on the premises just for confirmation thanks.
Can you come back on that?
It's audio something broke up there.
So your concerns are about the lack of attendance on the premises of Ms Wong?
Yes.
Thank you.
Sorry, could I comment on that?
Certainly, Mr Macdonald.
I think if you look at the two roles, premises licence holder and premises manager, the day
to day responsibility is the premises managers.
That is who is responsible for making sure that the premises operate properly.
The premises licence holder does not need to be part of the business. The
premises licence holder for instance could be the property owner with no
involvement in the day -to -day operation. They could be a pub company who don't
have anything to do with the day -to -day operation. They could be anyone, any
organisation who isn't involved in the day -to -day operation. So the
responsibility initially, the initial responsibility for the operation of
premises is the premises manager. If there is an issue then certainly the
premises licence holder that that's when their responsibility kicks in. Now
whether that's one of the supermarkets being told that there is an issue at one
of their branches and then having a responsibility to do something about it
then
That's fine. They're not on they're not in sight. I mean nobody from Tesco's head office
Visits Tesco's it is they expect the place to be run by the manager
And that initially is what we would expect as well the manager to run the place and tell us
if there's any issues
that as well as if you
if you employ an agent then
it becomes to a large extent agents responsibility as well. I mean I hope
your licencing standards officer would agree that if there are issues anywhere
and we are involved then we do our best to have them sorted out and we would do
we would do that I mean if it's a paperwork issue then we will deal with
the paperwork if it is an operational issue when we were made aware of the
fact that there'd be noise outside these premises we contacted the tenant and
said look what's going on here you can't do that so that I feel is is my job as
it would be Tesco's lawyers job or Sainsbury's lawyers job so I think the
it is not a regular occurrence for an awful lot of premises licence holders to
be on site or to be on site on a regular basis they are the owners of the licence
but they are not the operators of the business the operators of the business
is more often than not represented by the manager.
I'm sorry, I'm happy to clarify anything on that,
but I think there is, I would not
expect all our premises licence holders
to be on the property on a regular basis.
I have, not in East Lothian, but in Edinburgh and Glasgow,
a premises licence holder who lives in California.
He's never on the premises.
But if there's an issue, he knows to get in touch with me
and ask me to sort out the problems.
And that is what I would expect here in the first instance
as well.
I mean, whether Helen jumps in her car
and comes through straight away, which she's already
said she would do, I would expect her to call me.
And we would become involved in sorting out the situation too.
I don't think the obligation for the premises licence holder
to be on site is necessary.
It's what they do, how they deal with it that's important.
Thank you, Mr McDonald.
I acknowledge your experience in this field here and I congratulate you on that and thank
you for that.
But equally, I've also mentioned today that we work in a heavily regulated industry and
given the past history here, the board members are just trying to convince themselves that
we're not just jumping out of the pan and into the fire here and the history of hard
We're trying to ensure and indeed trying to help. We don't want to close places down
I'm trying to encourage them and help them build and that's the reasons for the questions and seeking there. I
Understand that and I think that the situation with mrs. Wong was entirely unacceptable
And we know that she took little or no interest in the situation. She was abroad a lot
That was I mean the board's decision last last month was absolutely correct and understandable
But this is a different scenario, Your Honours.
This is someone who is not far away, who knows the town, as Helen has just explained.
She knows what and when she can ask us to do something.
And I think you have been given assurances that this isn't going to happen again.
Thank you.
Just a kind of follow up, final question on that.
Is the new tenant known to Ms Wong?
The new ten - there's not actually a new tenant. The new tenant is who was there from 2022. What
happened was in 2022 there was a partnership. There was two people. One of them did all the
administrative side. He was a premises manager, he had the personal licence, he operated the
premises on a day -to -day basis, the other partner was a chef. Now the place ran from
2022, I think it was two years later, that partner left, the partnership split up and
that partner left and he resigned as premises manager. And the chef that was left running
the operation he was not up as you know from an administrative point of view. He
actually employed someone who had a personal licence and all he needed to do
was have them appointed as premises manager but he didn't. So they had a
personal licence holder there but he wasn't appointed as premises manager.
That person then left and that's when the premises were operating without a
manager which we can only which we could only hold our hands up and and and accept.
The chef, he is the one that was here last month, he is the one that is
that has applied for his premises his personal licence, he's the one that's done
the training so it's the same person that's there but he now has experience
of what's happened in the last few months he's he will have a personal
licence because he passed the exam and he will become the premises manager and
he is now having sat through last month's hearing very aware of his
responsibilities here and I told him about the hearing today there was no
requirement for him to come today because it's just a transfer application
today but he was he emailed me this morning to ask me if I could keep him
advised and what the result would be etc so he's now very much on the ball as
well. But it is really the same tenant. It's not a change of tenant. And of course, Helen
has met him and talked to him. They were both at the meeting last week and they've had discussions
over the past weeks. So he is very well known to Helen.
I also want to add, because I've taken over my mother's affairs for the past couple of
I've known Ramesh for the last two three years already. I keep
Messaging mostly I have met him a couple of times when I'm in in Musselburgh area and
He's actually now sign on board to me to be my client for accountancies a mine. I'm actually now his accountant as well
So we're gonna definitely be in close contact all the time
Thank you for that clarification much much appreciated
So can I move on to comments, please?
Are there any comments?
Councillor Dugdale, Fiona.
Thank you.
And thank you for the answers to all the questions from my colleagues on the board.
I meant I didn't need to ask any further questions.
It was really, really clear.
And because of those answers and that reassurance that you've offered today, and I was really
helpful Mr. Mcdonald on your explanation about the role of the premises manager
and the premises licence holder I think that was really helpful I'd be happy to
support this application thank you. Thank you Fiona. Councillor Mingus.
Yeah so I was glad to see this new application today as I thought it would
come through and I think it was really clear from the last meeting this board
was left not meeting their own licencing objectives because of the situation that was happening
at the business. I'm heartened to see that's been taken seriously. One of the major things
we have to prevent, especially given the area, is the crime and disorder and that was not
happening and that causes us all not just time and resources but also it's not a good
investment look for the area for the wider county. We don't attract better business in
if that's the perspective that they see. So we all want thriving businesses, we all want
premises to be able to stay open but they have to be operating at a quality and giving
us assurance that the laws will be met and that we will not have a repeat of the meeting
had last month. I'm happy to support the application today. I wish you all the
luck in it but you have to be aware there will be a lens on your business
because we cannot as a board have a repeat of what happened previously.
Thank you and thanks for answering all the questions today and your presentation.
Thank you. John. Chair George thank you and just just again to say thank you and
I think you explained very well reasons behind our questioning.
That is to be satisfied that we have got sufficient evidence that is reliable.
And I think that we've been hearing about changes in partnership.
We've been hearing about people having training, coming into the business.
I was really reassured by Helen's explanation and her experience.
I think and hope that that partnership will work, but
the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and in the drinking. I do wish the business
in that new partnership or an old partnership that is being re -established going forward.
I have been grateful to Mr McDonald for repeating that he understood the reason for our decision
last time. I think that he commented on us looking to help businesses open and stay open.
and I think that is absolutely right but we are looking for them to stay open and be open
responsibly and being compliant so I think I've heard enough to reassure me today that that will
happen. I think it's good of Mr McDonald also to explain the the roles and responsibilities
but also the checking up and the monitoring and responsibility of both
police and our LSO who carry out their duties really I think remarkably well here in
Nyslothian and I thank them for doing that so I'll be happy to grant
given all the explanations that we've had. Thank you.
the comments that have been made and also I know you'll appreciate mr.
McDonald the robustness of our questions have allowed us to seem to be to reach
what we think is a proper decision so thank you for this is the roll call vote
for transfer of premises licence for one or two new Street Musselburgh
councillor Bruce councillor Doug deal
councillor Gilbert grant councillor McGuire
councillor McMillan don't and castle Menses thank you that is unanimous thank
you very much thank you
Thank you.
Take us to the next item which is item number four, occasional licences for Carfrae Farm

4a. Occasional Licence - Carfrae Farm Retail Shop, Carfrae Farm, Haddington, EH41 4LP - OCC489/26 to OCC494/26

retail shop Carfrae Farm, Haddington and I think it's Mr McDonald again and I've got
Mr O 'Donnell, I will let you catch up with papers and if you want to say a few things
for the application.
Thank you, your honours.
I am afraid it is me again.
You are going to be fed up with me by the end of today.
I appreciate. Yes, I'm with Trudy and Eric who are premises licence holder for this.
There is a provisional licence in place. We're here today in respect of
occasional licences which we have applied for to cover the period from a
date next month to the end of the year. This is Calfrey farm shop. I think
Councillor McMillan made reference to these premises. It is a farm shop. They
have been involved with various schemes and promotions regarding the provision
of fine food in East Lothian, very much part of that food scene here. I think in general
this is a farm shop, it shouldn't be somewhere that gives your honours concerns from the
operational point of view, but it has and that's why we're up here today. Just to explain
the application. The occasionals are to allow the farm shop to sell alcohol
during the lead up to the festive period and in particular their speciality
around this time of the year and that is hampers. They have a huge market
with regard to hampers of various types of their produce at all levels and many
of these they would like to include a bottle of something in as well that is
on top of their normal day -to -day business so it's for a special reason at
a particular time of the year your owners the the applications would
commence on the 23rd of October and they would stop on the 31st of December
apparently some people are very efficient at organising Christmas and
they start making orders from that time in the lead up to Christmas and New Year
so it's just to allow that. The police have no objection. I'd like before I come
to your licencing standards officers report, Councillors, I'd like to deal with
the provisional premises licence. These of course last for four years this one
was granted in 2023 the resolution the ultimate resolution here is to have that
licence finalised which would then mean that occasional licences were no longer
required. There were issues with obtaining or there are still issues in
obtaining the section 50 certificate from building standards and that is
required in order to apply to finalise the licence. The warrant was finally
granted on the 21st of August. There was an issue with the fire department and I
think it was very difficult for our clients to obtain feedback from the fire
department, they were obviously very busy, and eventually the solution was
discovered and it was cleared and the building warden was issued on the 21st
of August. There are a couple of bits of work that require the ceiling joists
need insulated and sheeted and there's a ramp at the front of the shop.
There's a couple of things that need done from that point of view and there's some
electrical work involved as well. That would allow the completion certificate
to be issued and that would allow the confirmation application which is the application to finalise
the licence to be launched. Now that is the ultimate aim here, Councillors, so that the
farm shop has a full licence and no longer needs to depend on occasional licences. But
that won't be put in place that won't happen before Christmas in fact I think
the work being done in January is scheduled for January so that that is
why we're applying for these these will be the last occasional licences that
these premises apply for there will be no other occasional licences applied for
there has been concern there were problems in the past as is highlighted
in your LSO report with regard to occasional licences not having been applied for and the
premises selling alcohol. We have mentioned in the last applications I have made about
the requirements for licences to comply with the legislation to make sure that they have
what they have and not to sell alcohol until they are sure that they're entitled to do
so. I suspect the reason we are here today is because of a failure earlier this year
to do that and it was discovered by your LSO and I think the police visited as well and
it was discovered that the occasional licences had run out and there were no occasional licences
in place. Of course they were told to immediately remove the alcohol from the shop which they
did. I think there were further occasionals lodged but I was then contacted at that stage
and my advice to the clients was to withdraw these occasional licences and let the situation
calm down maybe is the wrong word wrong words but I'll use them and and just to
discuss with them rather than just banging in the occasional licences and
appearing before you to work out what had happened and how it had happened and
we did that and I stress the importance of getting the building warden through
and that's what they did we did indicate at the time when we withdrew these
occasionals that we would apply for Christmas and New Year which is what
we're doing but as I say these will be the last ones they will not include they
will not apply for any more occasional licences for these premises and they
will concentrate all the efforts now on doing what they need to do with building
standards and get the licence finalised. So far as why what happened in May
happened. There's really no other explanation than maladministration, just
overlooking, not realising that the occasionals had run out. I mean they
can't come up with any other excuse other than that. The solution, well as I
say they stopped applying for occasional licences, they gave themselves time to
to sort themselves out, employ ourselves and to concentrate on the building
standards issues. But the Christmas period is a very important time for them
as you can imagine with the hampers we did indicate that they would apply
finally at this time of the year which we've done. So there will not
required to be any further occasional licences so there's no possibility of
time limits being missed or licences not being not being in place and hopefully
the provisional licence will be finalised in the next months and that
will mean they have a full licence and there'll be no requirement anymore so
the administration where our clients have failed in the past your honours
should be a thing of the past or will be a thing of the past. Your LSO is mentioned
preventing crime and disorder and the crime obviously was the sale of
alcohol when the occasional had run out. Well everything they need has been
lodged by ourselves and no more will be applied for this so that cannot happen
again. Trudy has also asked for our help with regard to the finalisation of the
licence so we will be chasing the section 50 certificate we will be a
liaison with the architect regarding the obtaining of that certificate and we
would be submitting the confirmation to finalise the licence and take the
administration completely off today at ERIC and and they can get on with with
doing what they are best at doing. It's a busy time for the business as I
explained they are a local business producing fresh produce from the farm
and so on. Complementary alcohol on occasions. Understand their shortcomings.
They will make sure that they never sell alcohol again without the paperwork in
front of them authorising this. They would be grateful if the board would
agree to this and agree to these occasionals to let them do their hampers
with alcoholic involvement. As you'll appreciate if there wasn't any alcohol
a lot of people when they're giving presents of hampers wouldn't want to
give them. They like to have a bottle of whatever it is in the hamper so it would
be a serious issue with regard to their business. Now I accept the fact that the
commercial side of things does not is not relevant with regard to your
decision but obviously that is why they are applying for these.
I don't know if Trudy or Eric want to add anything to that but otherwise we would be
very happy to answer any questions which you may have.
Yes, thank you.
I think perhaps the only thing to add at this stage is just to explain the date, I think
is that the 9th of October the applications are from.
That's principally for marketing so that if we are going to be in a position to
continue with occasional licences to the end of 31st of December then we can
finalise our hamper offerings and the stock that we'll have and put out
some marketing material. That's not to say that people won't buy from the
date that a licence was in place but the reality is it is also just the marketing because people,
I think probably everyone here does, a lot of people do the same, you mull over what
you're going to buy, who you're going to buy it for, you do a bit of research and see who's
got what and then they make a decision.
So, with regards to the previous applications, some of which have been late in being submitted
and then we've had to have periods where we weren't selling alcohol, but more importantly
the very serious position that we were in when the LSO and the police visited the premises
and we discovered that we didn't have a current occasional licence in place. We take full
responsibility for that, wholeheartedly apologise for that, complete oversight in terms of our
administration, which was clearly not robust enough to cope with the important deadlines
that are required by licencing, which we sat through the meetings this morning and heard
it time and time again. We understand that. We come to this meeting understanding that.
We weren't deliberately trying to be selling alcohol without a licence. We did in fact
have licence applications that were submitted on the 30th of April which were due to, I
think I'm in fact I've got it here, come into effect from the 21st of May but obviously
the mistake we had is that we hadn't realised that we had already lapsed with our licence.
As a result of that we've obviously stepped back and looked very seriously at our position
and our lack of ability to keep on top of the administration and as a result engaged
Alistair Macdonald and his firm to apply for our applications for this current series.
also moving forward to convert hopefully the provisional to a full licence.
So by employing Alistair we feel we've got the appropriate professional expertise there to advise us
to carry out the applications that are required and to act as additional oversight for us.
Whereas, although I think it's important that we say that we recognise that responsibility falls with us,
but we feel that we would be well supported with Alistair.
I'm happy to answer any other questions with regards to what our position previously and also moving forward.
Thank you. Can I ask, please Scotland, if you've got any comments?
Obviously we're aware of that there's been gaps in the licences that's been discussed today,
we're aware of that previously. It is certainly something we would be looking to be rectified
because I think we're now at the point if it were to continue that there wasn't licence then we would
potentially be forced to take formal action. But if everything goes according to what's been
described today then we wouldn't have any issues with it. Thank you and our LSO. Thank you.
It's quite a lengthy report with a lot of figures in there so I'll maybe just
refer to it points without reading through some of the figures. So Mr.
McDonald has explained the situation with the provisional premises licence
and the board's policy is in relation to that to accept occasional licences if
you have a provisional premises licence it's normally done under delegated
powers for a duration of 12 months and then following this period if it hasn't
been confirmed then the occasional licences are brought to board so this
premises has been brought to board on a number of occasions for updates in
relation to the provisional and confirmation and there really hasn't
been much movement in the time that it has been a provisional premises licence.
The situation in relation to the occasional licence is explained and that a gap was found
and a visit was made unannounced and it was found that on the 13th of May during one of
those gaps the premises was selling alcohol without the occasional licence.
It is really quite concerning as an LSO when you find that someone is selling alcohol purely
because they just didn't cheque. They didn't cheque that they had an
occasional licence, nothing was printed and they just continued on. I have to
say with this one the administrative errors have not just been once, it's been
several times in relation to that. There's four times since 2023 that the
premises has been unlicensed. Now granted there haven't been cheques done on three
of those times but on the one occasion where those cheques were done alcohol was
for sale. Since 2023 applications have been late, often received with less than 21 days
and to note under the legislation the LSO has 21 days to respond to occasional licence applications
which puts in additional pressure on LSOs and at points those have been rejected because of the
administration hasn't been correct. There will also be a number of occasional licences emitted
less than 42 days in advance which is what the board policy asks for. So really for looking
at this, this is not just once, this has been a continued course of action over the period
since 2023. They have been given guidance on several occasions by the licencing team
to submit applications in a timely manner but over the years again that hasn't improved.
So realistically for my position, guidance has been given in the past.
That appears on paper not to have been taken on board and the administration hasn't been
great.
And it's only at this point now where Mr McDonald has been brought in.
I'm going to leave that decision up to the board as to if that's sufficient in relation
to what's happened in the past and if that will be sufficient going forward to ensure
and that there won't be any further mistakes.
Thank you everyone for that.
Can I pass on then to members
and ask if members have any questions?
Thank you, Chair.
So I think my major question
that's just rattling around in my head
is with having a provisional licence in place from 2023, how are we now in 2026 and that
section 50 hasn't been prioritised to the point where the full licence could have already
been converted into? What's been the hold ups with that?
Yes, so we were, I think it was April 25, we were updating the board with regards to,
we have our section 50 from food for the food department, food hygiene section 50 for planning,
it's the section 50 for building control that's outstanding for the section 50
for a building control we need comment from the fire officer regarding a water
hose that we have the architect had included that with the information for
the building warrant and the building control department needed comment on the
fire officer for that hose to confirm that it was sufficient.
We have tried, the architect has tried and we have tried to get comment from the fire
team but we weren't successful with that.
We got a breakthrough this year when there was a production being held on site at the
and they identified a fire hydrant that we have on site and I shared that
information with architect who in turn passed that on to Building Control and
they said that's great that's sufficient for us now to sign off on the building
warrant so that's why we were then granted the building warrant in August
on the 21st of August so that's the history as to why it has been slow
getting the conversion from the Building Control to have that warrant to progress
the work. Do you feel that yourselves as a business have prioritised that enough?
I'll give you a scenario, so if there was no chance of an occasional licence and
you only had the provisional so you could not trade, would your priorities
have changed and would you then have prioritised making sure that section 50
was signed off and that conversion was done? Having looked back, 85
five occasional applications so far. These applications are meant for school
fates and for charities, they're not meant for commercial use and in the
application it also takes away then the boards ability to set any if we wanted
to set any variance we can't do that with an occasional licence so I'm
I'm just I'm really concerned when first of all I see a business using them and
I'm even more concerned when I see a business using them over a prolonged
period. So again I'll recap my question do you think as a business you prioritised
it or do you think you've just relied on occasional licences to sort of fill the
gap? Obviously I understand the question and I'm gonna be completely honest and
say no I don't think we prioritised it enough,
regrettably. That's not to say we didn't do anything but I think to be
completely honest to answer your question is no we clearly didn't
I think when I got involved last May, my advice was to withdraw the occasional licences that
were pending, concentrate on the provisional premises licence and I said the only occasionals
that I will apply for are Christmas and New Year, I can understand why that's so important
to you but I would not do any occasional applications before that and I will not do any occasional
licences after this.
I think come January, Christmas and New Year over, the concentration should be 100 % on
getting that provisional completed.
I certainly would not be involved in submitting any more occasional licences until this provisional
is completed. So the occasionals that you have before you today will be the last occasionals.
If I can just have another question. Again I do appreciate your candour. We understand
from the LSO that there's been four times where your occasionals have lapsed. Have you
sold alcohol and it has just been a lapse in not having the occasionals in place?
I did go back through emails as best I could with the dates that were in the report
and I did find emails going back to the licencing team apologising that I was
late with my applications and it was noted that they couldn't be granted on time.
But in during those times did you continue to sell alcohol or you withdrew alcohol?
If we didn't continue to sell alcohol we withdrew alcohol. Thank you.
I don't think I've got any more questions.
We have no one online so I'll open it up to comments.
Could I have one question first and I think it's probably to the clerk.
Are we able to, does the legislation allow us to say we would not accept any more applications
for occasional licences from this premises?
We wouldn't be able to expressly state that it would have to be looked at on a case by
case basis.
In which case I'm happy to go straight to my comment.
That's okay.
I'm sorry, can I just jump? I think Councillor McMillan John's here.
Are you coming with a question John or will it be a comment?
Comment please.
Okay, well I'll jump to Leanne first then.
Take your hand, John.
Okay, carry on then John, carry on.
No, no, please let Leanne go first.
We're just going to play ping pong all day John.
So I'm really glad to hear your candour first and foremost and that you are taking this seriously.
I'll be honest, I don't think it's been taken seriously enough up until now.
I think 8 to 5 occasional applications for a business is absolutely against the spirit of the legislation.
I understand it's within the legislation, there's no accusation there.
In my opinion, the legislation is flawed in that respect and I don't put that responsibility
on businesses that utilise that, but it's not within the spirit of the legislation and
it's not something we as an authority or as this board should be encouraging businesses
to carry on with.
I am granted to mind the application but I'll be really clear, if it comes in front of me
again, that will change.
As Mr McDonald has said, he's made it clear he would not be involved in it.
I could not agree to a single further occasional licence and there is no excuse that would
change my mind on that.
You need to concentrate your mind on the fact you need to get this work done and convert
your provisional into a full licence.
We desperately need thriving businesses within East Lothian that show how good we are at
We need you to comply with the legislation and otherwise it's not a good look to invest
other businesses. We attract the wrong type of businesses and I can't be party to that
at all. So I am minded to grant today but want to be really clear that that will change
if you ever come back for further occasional licences. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor McMillan.
Gentlemen, John.
Gentlemen, George.
Thank you.
I noticed a wee slip from Councillor Meagh.
She said she was granted to mind.
I think our words are maybe right.
We have to mind the law.
We have to mind our role.
We have to grant.
grant and remind people that this is a regulated business.
It's been the theme of the morning.
I appreciate the candour.
I appreciate the fact that they've today and Eric have
sought the support of Mr. McDonald.
We've seen Mr. McDonald perform all morning.
And I think there is that element of trust in him
and respect for him that builds on reassurance.
And I think linked to the candour,
there's going to be a bit of modesty being around
because I do know that the quality business
that Councillor Meegan referred to
is what I think Trudy and Eric aspire to.
They've been taking part in national initiative,
local initiatives.
It's important for the rural economy.
As somebody who begins their Christmas shopping usually around 1 o 'clock on Christmas Eve,
I know the benefits of having somewhere good to go to and that can do all round service.
But we're back to this point about it being in a regulated industry and I accept the point that
all over Scotland. Building control, the issue of building warrants is a problem. I think
both Eric and Trudy will know that local councillors will help where they can and that our officers,
both in economic development and in planning and development and in building control, will
respond. I think they have noted that they are going to focus on their priorities in
the future with Mr Macdonald's advice. It doesn't make our role any easier. I think
our licencing standard officer, again with great clarity, is cautioning us. I think we
are accepting that caution. But on balance, and I think it is on balance for the rural
economy, for supporting business and in the hope that the licencing laws and regulations
will be complied with better on time, more fully in the future that I'm minded to grant.
But I think the applicants are hearing our concerns and that can happen again.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, John.
And just for information, John, the garage and the retail parks open late on Christmas
Eve if you're stuck.
Thank you.
I usually try to start at one and finish by half past.
I'm not going to extend this any longer than to say that I fully concur with everything
that my colleagues have said and I think the messages got through and again just thanks
to Mr. McDonald for the trust that we have in him in his presentations and the fact that
you brought him on board.
Delighted with that and wish you every success going forward and in the nicest possible sense
I hope we don't see you again other than in the business.
Can we move to the roll call please.
This is the occasional licence application for Calf Reform retail shop.
Councillor Bruce.
Grant.
Councillor Dugdale.
Grant.
Councillor Gilbert.
Grant.
Councillor McGuire.
Grant.
Councillor McMillan.
Grant.
Councillor Mensey's good that is unanimous thank you very much thank you
thank you I'll take us to the next item on the agenda which is review of

4b. Occasional Licenses - Tranent True Blues LOL 228, Blair Halls, St Martin's Lane, Tranent, EH33 1HN - OCC509/26 – Pages 79-86

premises licence the stand 72 to 74 high Street Musselburgh and again we've got
mr. McDonald this application
Mr Rouda, if you could introduce your client for the purpose of our clerk to note and also
if you want to say a few words about the reason for the review.
Thank you, Carlo. Yes, another one that I'm afraid is not straightforward, over a nice
straightforward cafe application. But this one is its complications as well. And with
Mohammed, who this is really our first meeting about this particular premises, but I can
explain the situation as best I can, Your Honours. These are premises in Muswellborough
called the stand and we were here last September and I was with my client at
the time Mr. Kan, Idris Kan, who was the premises licence holder. The reason for
the review was I think twofold because the premises had been closed for a long
time, they were no longer selling alcohol and there is a provision under the
legislation which says that if premises ceased to sell alcohol that it may be

5. Review of Premises Licence - The Stand, 72/74 High Street, Musselburgh, EH21 7BX

appropriate for the board to revoke the licence. That would be the case for
instance if somewhere a shop that sold alcohol had been converted into a
butcher shop which wasn't going to sell alcohol that it would no longer if the
licence holder had not surrendered the licence that it would be appropriate for
the board to take it off them. There was also work to do and the board wanted to
know from Mr. Cahn when is the work going to be done and when are the
premises likely to be open again. It was accepted that there was a lot of work to be done and
that would take some time and therefore the indication from the board last September was
that it would be appropriate if the premises had not opened, were not selling alcohol again,
to bring it back this month, which is what has happened, because the premises have not
opened and are not selling alcohol. Now during the last year I have emailed and
contacted Mr. Kann on numerous occasions saying how are you getting on, how's the
work getting on, have you found a tenant, is the place going to be open and on
on each case and each time that that happened, what I would only express is a considerable waffle
from Mr Khan saying that there was some work being done, didn't quite know when it would be carried
out etc and we just were not making any progress whatsoever. A few months ago he said that he'd
speaking to a potential buyer. I asked him to keep me advised and he didn't and
until yesterday I had not been told who the buyer of the premises were. The
premises were sold a few weeks ago and I'm with the new company and this is
who is a director of the company.
And indeed, Your Honours, a transfer application.
When I eventually was told who the new owners were,
I spoke to them yesterday and we lodged a transfer application yesterday.
Now, the company is a company called Lothian Hospitality,
who I've dealt with before, who are clients of ourselves.
They own the coronation inn in Goa Bridge.
They actually own the restaurant next door to here, which is called Parilla.
So they own the premises next to a Parilla and they also have three other restaurants in Edinburgh.
So they are well -known operators. They have the licence for Parilla through yourselves,
they have the licence for the coordination in through Middle Odeon, and three licences
in Edinburgh. And well -known operation, and I can say that at these five restaurants that
they have, we have never been before you, I'm not aware of the LSOs having any concerns
about Perilla in Musselburgh and I think they're a well -respected operation.
In fact, speaking to Karen earlier, I don't think she's been there for a long time and
always like it when LSOs have not been in premises for a long time.
It indicates that they have not had any issues and that has been the case here.
So you now have before you, now they...
Mr. Cahn told the purchaser nothing about last year's hearing.
He told them nothing about today's hearing.
He told them nothing about the concerns that the board have.
So yesterday when I contacted them, it was a complete surprise that this was taking place
and that there were issues with the board.
They had no knowledge of that whatsoever.
And I explained to them that I think it was a good idea for them to come along
and I told them there was an option of online but they were both very keen that
they could come along and give your honours the assurances that I've no
doubt you would be looking to. Now the premises have not had work done to them
I don't think Mr. Khan really did much at all so there I think Mohammed can
probably give you a better idea of what condition they're in that I can but
there's clearly a lot of work to be done. They had already arranged a visit on
Monday I think with their architect. There is a visit, there is a meeting on Monday
and the meeting on Monday will decide what work requires to be done, a timescale
for that and what paperwork is necessary, whether a building warrants necessary
for the work that will need done, whether it may be planning applications for signage
or whatever, everything that needs to be done they're going to agree with their architect
on Monday.
So what I'm giving you today, Your Honours, is not Mr Khan, who I think it was clear to
everybody was not really prioritising, I think that word has been used already very relevantly,
and I think it certainly applied if I was sitting here with Mr Khan, but these people have just taken over.
Straight away they've organised this meeting on Monday and I think I'll ask Mohammed to speak to you
and perhaps give you an idea of their plans, their timescale etc.
Obviously they want to get it up and running as quickly as they can.
But to that end Your Honours, this is the full premises licence.
There is a full premises licence here as I say the concern from the board was it it had been lying empty for so long
The fact that they've come along and taken it over
Indicates that that is new
Coming to an end
Mohammed do you want to give it
Morning everyone
So we try to be in touch with mr. Khan for quite some time
Because this property has been laying down like for a number of years and this is a great potential there
We know the highest it very well. We've been trading there for quite some time and we have got a really
Good customer business spells. We know muscle very well and we know there's a good potential and if we open up if we get the
Work done it will bring more people in through from all over is Lothian
So we managed to get the sale done last week and we got our title deeds I think last Saturday.
And we managed to know about this meeting just yesterday as Mr.
McDonald said.
So the property need extensive work done.
A lot of work done and we are meeting with the architect on Monday and after that we'll be able
to let the board know what's the situation gonna be.
But our aim is to keep it as a high -end restaurant, source the produce from the Scottish border
and east coast and west coast and make a really high -end restaurant.
That's our aim and hopefully that will work out well and serve the community very well
as well.
So it's just a matter of time.
We'll know at the moment.
We don't know what the time limit is going to be, but we want to get the work done as
soon as possible.
Thank you.
Thank you. Can I ask, are Police Scotland have any comments at all?
No adverse comments from Police Scotland. Thank you. And our licenced standard officer.
Thank you. I spoke with Mr. McDonald yesterday in relation to this and I appreciate that
it was very last minute in relation to the transfer. For the linked premises, I've had
no complaints in relation to the premises and as McDonald has said I've
had no reason to visit it hasn't been visited for some time so yet no issues
with it as such that have been discovered and I would welcome that this
building is is used especially for the high street and obviously creates not a
great look for any neighbouring premises so and I would be supportive that it
continues and is hopefully an asset to the community and retains the licence to go on
further.
Thank you for the contributions there.
I see that Councillor McMillan is fast on the buzzer for this one.
John, would you like to come in?
It really is just a question in relation to the timing of the application and given Police
Scotland's no objection. Were police Scotland aware of the change of ownership and would that
change, and I've been reassured by Mohammed's statements, but does the police Scotland comment
reflect the new information that came to the board and to Licencing Team yesterday?
Thank you John. Would the police Scotland like to answer that question for councilman Millan?
Yeah, I still have nothing further to add from police Scotland.
Thank you very much, that's really helpful. Thank you.
Any further questions?
Dan, my one would just be to follow up on what you made at the moment.
You don't have any idea of the time scale of the works to be carried out.
That's obviously going to be dependent.
We will carry it out as soon as possible.
The moment we sit down with the architect, we're going to have a proper plan how you want to get things done.
We want to be as organised as possible, so hopefully if everything goes well, we're going to start the work after Christmas.
So from January onwards, the restaurant will be quiet, all other places will be quiet and
you can focus on the renovation itself.
Thank you.
If there are no further questions, open for comments.
Councillor MINGUS.
Yeah, so I'm granted to mind this one.
I'm minded to grant and I think Mr McDonald, you've been really clear in making the separation
and I think if there wasn't that separation between the previous owner
then it may have been a far different decision for me. That building has sat
empty since 2014 when we were all promised it was going to be the jewel
and the crown of Musselburgh and sadly it is still not. And your restaurant right
next door it can't be a good look for people that come in having visited your
restaurant always trying to come in the other way so that you're not passing it
it's just not a good look so really do welcome the changes and I hope you get
them done as quickly as possible so that your bigger restaurant can open and
welcome the changes that it'll bring to the entire, not just the High Street but the town.
At the minute that's an eyesore and thank you for taking it on and
transforming and investing in Musselpah. Thank you.
Thank you, Mian.
Councillor Dugdale, Fiona.
Thank you, thank you chair and again thanks to Ms Mcdildale and Mohammed for describing
what the plans are and for coming in last minute to the board to talk to us today.
I'm in agreement with Councillor Mendez as well, I think it's really reassuring to hear
that this building will be and there will be plans for this building because I've been
I feel really reassured by what you said and also your track record in business and in
restaurants.
I would be happy to support this as well.
Thank you both for coming in today to talk to us as well.
That has been really helpful.
Thank you.
Thank you Fiona and Councillor Nolan.
Thank you chair.
Mr Macdonald, thank you for being so frank.
I don't think I've heard the word waffle being used in the licencing board before. It might have
been a word that often went through our minds, but for you to use it I think is complete frankness.
I particularly want to thank our licencing team colleagues because I think having this on the
board within, you know, and being able to consider it so clearly and well only 24 hours after getting
the information. I think it is a really important point to note. Welcome the investment. I think
the fact that we are doing it today and what we have done today, it is just again more
evidence of us trying to ensure that licencing laws are complied with and that we support
responsible businesses going forward and I wish them well. Thank you.
I share the comments that my colleagues made and particularly concerning us there that
it would be nice to see an establishment opening up and doing away with the eyesore that's
there as well as thanks to the licencing board team, licencing officer, hard working together.
But as opposed to yourself, Mr. McDonald, it's been a long stint for you today and as
However, as we have said it repeatedly, you make life easy for us.
So thank you very much for that.
And again, wish you well with it too and we look forward to opening as quickly as possible.
Can we move to the roll call vote, please?
This is the roll call vote for review of premises licence for the stand in Muswellburgh.
Councillor Bruce.
Councillor Bruce.
Councillor Dougdale.
I said my comment, I support.
Thank you.
Councillor Gilbert.
Yes, Grant.
Councillor Maguire.
Grant.
Councillor McMillan.
Grant.
Councillor Menzies.
Grant.
Councillor Bruce, can you hear us?
Sorry, I couldn't get an unmuted grant, please.
Thank you.
That's unanimous.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Just to summarise quickly on this application, the premises as granted, it means the licence
will be in place.
There hasn't been an annual fee paid yet.
so as a common theme and so I'd advise that you get that in quickly before the
1st of October for it I also say that as this licence has been out for quite some
time and in terms of the legislation as Mr. McDonald pointed out it will be
something that as clerk I'll be keeping a close eye on with the board and if
there isn't progress, I might be taking this back up again in September again.
Could I ask perhaps, because the invoice will have been sent to Mr Kan, so if I could ask
–
We do take payment on the day.
Thank you everyone.
Next item for anybody who is tuning in was the Chief Constable's report but it has been

6. Chief Constables Report – 202512026

postponed from September's board to October's board.

7. Report - Scheme of Delegation

We will move on to item number 7 which is a report of the scheme of delegation for the licencing board.
Sheila Fitzpatrick is presenting.
Thank you very much. This is the scheme of delegation for the licencing board which was first approved in January of this year.
There have been a couple of amendments and we are asking the board to adopt those amendments.
There is a table of the amendments on the back page of that report.
the first one being the addition of paragraph 1 .5 where we are slightly
changing things and just clarifying that when a review of a licence has been
requested by either the LSO or Police Scotland the reasons for the review will
not be made public until after the meeting and relevant documents will be
provided to those subjects of the review obviously but by maintaining
confidentiality the council intends to limit any negative or unintended adverse
impact on affected priorities prior to the conclusion of the review. The second
amendment is very slight to paragraph 2 .8 and this is where essentially we are
tightening up deadlines for receiving objections or representations and that
is in order that applicants are given ample and reasonable time in which to
review and potentially respond to those same objections or representations.
As I say, looking to have the board adopt those two amendments to the scheme of delegation.
If you would like to give theod
any comments on this?
I think it's perfectly clear, so no
questions at all.
Any comments?
A really quick comment for me.
I think this is really, it has given me confidence that we are listening and we are listening
to applicants and we are listening to objectors as well because both the changes have come
in really quickly as well so huge thanks to the entire team for turning that round but
have come in because of experience so if we didn't change if we didn't pick up
these adaptations and amendments then clearly we're not listening to that
feedback so I'm really really confident in the team and the ability to hear
exactly what said and go like what can we make better and this is a sign of it so
massive thanks on it. Thank you. I was gonna say something very
Thank you for making the change and making it clear to us and anyone in the public who
wants to understand what we do and the processes we follow.
That is really helpful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We have Councillor McMillan and John.
Thank you.
I hope the team will always know the confidence I place in the knowledge and training.
I think that the two reasons given by by Shoa are very clear and they are good and fair reasons.
I think it is about a fair hearing. I think it is about the preparation that goes into the presentation of the packs that are in front of us,
that we are committed to reading, understanding,
understanding through questions, through comments, and we've seen
that work really, really well today. I think that that whole
point about being open about what we're doing and how we do
it and trying to commit to standards of fairness in this
quasi judicial process based on evidence. I think both these
amendments are right and I think Councillor Minnis' comments about learning and about
continuing to uphold the standards so that people get a fair hearing. There are many
ways for people to comment, support and object to applications. I think by tightening them
up in the process doesn't restrict people from commenting and I think the whole amendment
shows that we are trying to make it clear what we do, why we do it and how we do it and I really
support this paper that does all of that so with thanks to the team and to Sheila and everyone else,
thank you.
Okay, happy to approve this.
Happy to approve.
Okay, thank you.
Agreed.
Apologies, I thought it was approved.
Can we have a roll call vote please?
This is the roll call vote for scheme of delegation, the amendments.
Councillor Bruce.
Support.
Councillor Dougdale support. Councillor Gilbert approve.
Councillor McGuire support. Councillor McMillan approve.
Councillor Menzies approve. Thank you.
Not in the time I'll ask the convener if we can go to the last item before having a break.
So I'll introduce the next item.

8. East Lothian Licensing Board Standing Orders

East Lothian Licencing Board Standing Orders and Sheila is presenting again.
Thank you, hopefully the papers are clear in front of you.
It was following on from the scheme of delegation and noting that we didn't have standing orders
for the licencing board being that slightly separate body from East Lothian Council so
that's why this has been brought in and I think that most of the paragraphs are
fairly standard in terms of other committees and so on but as I say needed
to be brought in just as a standalone body of the board so it's the manager
committee will adopt the standing orders for the board
Thank you. Questions? I've got Neil Gilbert, Councillor Gilbert online. Neil?
No I don't have my hand up. Apologies it's coming up on the screen there but no problems.
One quick question so it's a standard standing order and it's got the 30
minute break after two hours is there any leeway in that so and I'm trying to
future proof here because we've had we have full council meetings that can be
all day now usually licencing isn't that but if it was to be a really hefty all
day, 30 minutes doesn't allow me to eat and take my medication and the result has been
before I've had a hypo and had to leave a meeting. So even just that extra 10 minutes
does and it allows me to come back and I'm with it, I'm not liable to keel over and it's
just that is there that leeway for the chair because I might not need it but if I was asking
for 45 minutes it would either be that or I'm off for the afternoon.
I'll take this question, thank you Council Mains. The way the standard orders are drafted, this discretion
always for the chair to take into account anything, any representations or
have a longer break if it's needed. George are calling it and held up
before standards because I've asked for a longer break and hopefully we're not having all day meetings.
I will point out that it was Carla's decision to extend this meeting beyond the two hours.
Nobody else coming in with questions.
Any last comments?
No comments?
Sorry, I guess we have millions sneaking in there.
John, would you like to come in?
Again, I didn't think I'd put my hand up, but I think again, it's just a good sign of
the professionalism and the wisdom of our officers and their training that we're making
this transparent.
Again it's the why, what and how.
And I think it is important for anybody looking in that they are aware of the preparation
that goes in and of the background to what's delegated to officers as we've just discussed
and how we conduct our meetings. It's not just coming out of thin air and as someone who has
chaired those long meetings I always want to apologise to Councillor Mias because I know
I know the issues that she raised are really important and I think that discretion of the
chair is something that I'm always aware of and I would hope that we will always work
together to make sure that we conduct the business in the best way for everyone, including
Councillors who are giving up their time to do this. So thank you.
Thank you John I think all chairs would be sympathetic to those requests and it's only common sense.
There are no further comments and nobody's ghost hands come up on the screen.
So can we move to the vote call please.
This is the vote for adoption of the standing orders for East Lothian Licence and Board.
Councillor Bruce.
So what.
Councillor Dugdale.
Councillor Gilbert.
approve. Councillor McGuire approve. Councillor McMillan approve. And Councillor Menzies approve. Thank you.
Thank you everyone that concludes today's meeting. Thank you for all your input and your attendance and your patience.
We'll try and cut down on the mistakes next month. Thank you George.