East Lothian Council - Tuesday 25 February 2025, 10:00am - East Lothian Council Webcasting

East Lothian Council
Tuesday, 25th February 2025 at 10:00am 

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  1. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  2. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  3. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  4. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  5. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  6. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  7. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  8. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  9. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  10. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  11. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  12. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  13. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  14. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
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  6. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  7. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  8. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  9. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  10. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  11. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  12. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  13. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  14. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  15. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  16. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  17. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  18. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  19. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  20. Andy Forrest - Councillor
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  1. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  2. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  3. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  4. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  5. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  6. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  7. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  8. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  9. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  10. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  11. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  12. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  13. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  14. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  15. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
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  1. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  2. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  3. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  4. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  5. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  6. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  7. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  8. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  9. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  10. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  11. Presenting Officer
  12. Presenting Officer
  13. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  14. Presenting Officer
  15. Jeremy Findlay - Councillor
  16. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  17. Jeremy Findlay - Councillor
  18. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  19. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  20. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  21. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  22. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  23. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  24. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  25. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  26. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  27. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  28. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  29. Presenting Officer
  30. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  31. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  32. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  33. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  34. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  35. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  36. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  37. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  38. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  39. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  40. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  41. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  42. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  43. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  44. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  45. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  46. Presenting Officer
  47. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  48. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  49. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  50. Presenting Officer
  51. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  52. Presenting Officer
  53. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  54. Presenting Officer
  55. Presenting Officer
  56. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  57. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  58. Presenting Officer
  59. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  60. Presenting Officer
  61. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  62. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  63. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  64. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  65. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  66. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  67. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  68. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  69. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  70. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  71. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  72. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  73. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  74. Fiona Dugdale - Councillor
  75. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  76. Andy Forrest - Councillor
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  1. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  2. Presenting Officer
  3. Brooke Ritchie - Councillor
  4. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  5. Presenting Officer
  6. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  7. Presenting Officer
  8. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  9. Brooke Ritchie - Councillor
  10. Presenting Officer
  11. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  12. Presenting Officer
  13. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  14. Presenting Officer
  15. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  16. Presenting Officer
  17. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  18. Presenting Officer
  19. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  20. Presenting Officer
  21. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  22. Presenting Officer
  23. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  24. Presenting Officer
  25. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  26. Presenting Officer
  27. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  28. Presenting Officer
  29. Fiona Dugdale - Councillor
  30. Presenting Officer
  31. Fiona Dugdale - Councillor
  32. Presenting Officer
  33. Fiona Dugdale - Councillor
  34. Presenting Officer
  35. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  36. Presenting Officer
  37. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  38. Presenting Officer
  39. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  40. Presenting Officer
  41. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  42. Presenting Officer
  43. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  44. Presenting Officer
  45. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  46. Presenting Officer
  47. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  48. Presenting Officer
  49. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  50. Presenting Officer
  51. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  52. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  53. Carol McFarlane - Councillor
  54. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  55. Brooke Ritchie - Councillor
  56. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  57. Fiona Dugdale - Councillor
  58. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  59. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  60. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  61. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  62. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  63. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  64. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  65. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  66. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
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  6. Presenting Officer
  7. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  8. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  9. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  10. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  11. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  12. Presenting Officer
  13. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  14. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  15. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  16. Presenting Officer
  17. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  18. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  19. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  20. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  21. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  22. Presenting Officer
  23. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  24. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  25. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  26. Presenting Officer
  27. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  28. Presenting Officer
  29. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  30. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  31. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  32. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  33. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  34. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  35. Presenting Officer
  36. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  37. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  38. Presenting Officer
  39. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  40. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  41. Jeremy Findlay - Councillor
  42. Presenting Officer
  43. Jeremy Findlay - Councillor
  44. Presenting Officer
  45. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  46. Presenting Officer
  47. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  48. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  49. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  50. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  51. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  52. Lyn Jardine - Councillor
  53. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  54. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  55. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  56. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  57. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  58. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  59. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  60. Andy Forrest - Councillor
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  2. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  3. Andy Forrest - Councillor
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  5. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  6. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  7. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  8. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  9. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  10. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  11. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  12. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  13. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  14. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  15. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  16. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  17. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  18. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  19. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  20. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  21. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  22. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  23. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  24. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  25. Tom Trotter - Councillor
  26. Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office
  27. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  28. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  29. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  30. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  31. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  32. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  33. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  34. Shona McIntosh - Councillor
  35. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  36. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  37. Andy Forrest - Councillor
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  40. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
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  7. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  8. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  9. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  10. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  11. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  12. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  13. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  14. Kenny McLeod - Councillor
  15. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  16. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  17. Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor
  18. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  19. Shamin Akhtar - Councillor
  20. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  21. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
  22. Andy Forrest - Councillor
  23. Lel Gillingwater - Clerk
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  6. Webcast Finished

Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:00:03
I would like to welcome everybody to this meeting on the 25th of February, 2025, which
is being held via a hybrid system as provided for in the terms of the local government,
Scotland Act 2003.
The meeting is being recorded and webcast live via the council's website in order to
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:00:25
allow the public access to the democratic process in East Lothian.
Ethylothian Council is a data controller under the Data Protection Act 2018, and data collected
as part of the recording will be retained in accordance with the Council's policy on
record retention, and the webcast of this meeting will be publicly available for six
months.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:00:42
On behalf of the Council, I would like to thank officers for the work which has gone
into the reports on today's agenda.
I would also like to welcome Mr Douglas Sherlow, Chief Digital Officer at COSLA, who has come
along to observe this morning's meeting. Thank you.
We move on to apologies. We have apologies from Councillors Allen,
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:01:06
Bruce, Cassini, Collins and McMillan. Thank you.
Do we have any declarations of interest? Can I declare an interest in the last item
on the Muswellburgh Common Good so I'm a trustee for Fisher O Trust and I have
worked with both the Hollies and a tennis club on previous applications so
would be too close to them to make any decisions.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:01:42
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:01:47
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:01:54
I have a declaration of interest in item 7.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:02:02
I'm a director on Queen Margaret University board and I also like to
notify that I will have to leave the meeting up to overclock today as I have
a family funeral. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Hampshire. I would like to now
advise of a change to the proposed running order. I would be bringing items
eight and nine as the first substantive items of business following the approval
of the minutes this morning. We could now ask the clerk to take a roll call vote of the members present.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:02:46
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:02:53
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:02:55
present
Councillor McGinn
present
Councillor McGuire
present
Councillor McIntosh
present
Councillor McLeod
present
Councillor Menzies
present
Councillor Vichy
present
Councillor Trotter
present
and Councillor Yorkston
present
thank you
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:03:20
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:03:22
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:03:23
Councillor McIntosh you were looking to speak?
No, that was just Toria. I thought to say it was present.
Okay. If we could move on to the first item.

1a. Minutes for Approval - Special East Lothian Council, 12 November 2024

Item 1, a minutes for approval. 1A is a special council meeting of the 12th of November.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:03:44
Is everybody happy to accept them as a correct record?
Thank you.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:03:52
And 1B is the council meeting of the 10th of December.

1b. Minutes for Approval - East Lothian Council, 10 December 2024

Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:03:53
Is everybody happy to accept the record?
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:04:01
We can now move on to item 8.
Which would be 8, but it is item 3.

8. Notice of Motion: Motion in Support of a Global Fossil Fuel Non-proliferation Treaty – Motion Submitted by Councillors McIntosh and McMillan

This is a motion in support of a global fossil fuel non -proliferation treaty.
The motion was submitted by Councillors McIntosh and Macmillan.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:04:28
If I could ask Councillor Mcintosh to propose a motion.
Thank you.
I have to say I wasn't prepared to be leading off the whole meeting
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:04:32
with my speech about
the fossil fuel non -proliferation treaty.
I think it is quite unusual to move this around on such little notice and I don't think it
is very fair.
I will just say that to start with.
I feel very privileged in general to be bringing this motion today.
I didn't think I would be doing it in the afternoon.
I'm very grateful to Councillor McMillan who's worked with me on this, on the wording of it.
We had several really useful chats and I think that the text in the motion is improved from his insights.
And I'd also like to congratulate Global Justice Now for their international campaign on this important issue.
So I think I put a lot of what I wanted to say into the motion text and I don't want to just read through it.
So I thought I would say a little bit about what non -proliferation means,
apart from it being quite a tricky word to say when you're under pressure and in a chamber.
I mean I think to me one of the main things it means is first of all not adding to the
existing problem, to recognise that fossil fuel extraction and the burning of fossil
fuels is a huge problem that we're wrestling with globally, as we said in the motion and
it was one of the points Councillor McMillan really pulled out. You know we wrestle with
this a lot of the time on this council, a lot of our existing strategies and things
that come in front of us from month to month
are engaging with this problem in some way.
So non -proliferation means, first of all,
you don't add to that problem by opening more oil fields,
for instance.
And that's why the principle of no new oil and gas
is so important to the climate movement
and so important to this treaty.
I was actually at the court in Edinburgh
outside on the first day of the recent hearing regarding
the Rosebank and Jackdaw fields.
And the atmosphere there was fantastic.
Greenpeace had arranged a big protest.
and it was a very celebratory feeling because there were many people from lots of different groups there
who all knew at that time that the judgment was very likely to find in favour of Greenpeace,
which it subsequently did. And largely we knew that was likely to happen because the UK government
had made the the Admiral decision not to fight the case. I think it was Ed Melliban's department
who acknowledged that the original licenses for Rosebank and Jackdaw had been granted illegally,
they'd been granted under Rishi Sunak and that the current UK government decided not to fight that
case and it was a really significant decision to do so and I hope that the UK government
will continue to act with that principle of non -proliferation in mind in order to safeguard
the future.
The two other principles of the treaty are a fair phase out of fossil fuels and a just
transition.
And to me these are two sides of the same coin.
The growth in renewables that we see the infrastructure for all over our landscape in East Lothian
must go hand in hand with reductions in fossil fuel usage and at the moment internationally
and nationally that's not happening to the extent it needs to. We have to recognise this
may involve moving to lower energy usage overall. And this is what the COP process has been really
bad at securing and it's why a treaty that would sit alongside the Conference of Parties system
could really help to bolster that process. From COP26 in Glasgow, the COP processes just
have become really compromised by the number of fossil fuel lobbyists who are in those rooms
from Glasgow and since then the fossil fuel lobbyists have actually outnumbered the delegates
from the island and nations who stand to lose their entire lands really from the rising sea
levels. So this is where we really need strong political leadership from those in government at
every level because the industry lobbyists are never going to accept smaller profits or selling
less product and we need to plan out the transition so that we can phase fossil fuels down
as renewables ramps up. We have to acknowledge that people's jobs still depend on the fossil
fuel industry and that that needs planned as well. We just need to look at danger to see what happens
when you don't plan this and when you pretend that you can keep on going until the market collapses
and companies that are just looking to make a profit will move out and leave workers in the
lurch unless the plan has been put in place to make sure that those workers can be reskilled,
helped into new jobs, whether that's in the clean energy sector or its supply chain or something
else entirely if that's what they want to do. But both that phase out and transition
of jobs need to be planned so that the burden doesn't fall on the people who are least able
to pay and I think that's a principle that we have looked at and engaged with with all
these different strategies that we have brought in front of us where we're engaging with the
climate crisis. Because the principle of fairness I think lies at the heart of the pillars of
the treaty and of the way I think we in East Lothian talk about the climate crisis through
our declaration of the climate emergency, the nature emergency, the way we've looked to
employ community wealth building and our local economy strategy, all these things
I think really link up very well with the principle of the treaty. So I think it would be
really meaningful just to sum up for East Lothian to add its voice to the national and local
governments that have already called for a fossil fuel treaty. Lots and lots of local authorities
in the UK have done so too. Off the top of my head I think in Scotland there's been Dundee,
Glasgow, Edinburgh, one of the airshores and quite a lot of local authorities in England as well,
and politicians of all parties. It's not asking us to sign up to a treaty, it's just saying let's
support the principle of getting one written and showing us both our global solidarity with the
people who will be most affected by this crisis as well as having the local well -being of our
future generations most in mind. I think that the draft climate change strategy that Mr Ham is
working on just now is a really positive step and it includes climate leadership as one of its main
threads and I think that ensuring that our local efforts are linked into global calls to action
is one of the key ways that we can demonstrate that leadership. So I'd ask you all to please
support this motion and support the concept of a fossil fuel non -proliferation treaty and I said
it again without tripping over my words. Thanks. Thank you Councillor McIntosh. Do you have a
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:10:22
for the motion because obviously councillor McMillan isn't here oh so can
you not second if you're not I did not arrange that no one would anyone
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:10:31
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:10:31
councillor menses I'm happy to second if that's allowed yes
I happen to second.
Across to yourself Councillor Mendz.
I formally second it.
Thank you.
Councillor Hampshire.
Thank you Provost.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:10:49
This motion has significant financial implications for this Council, our economy and our communities.
I would propose that this motion is continued for further discussions at the cross -party working groups
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 0:11:09
So we can fully understand the implications this will have
Councillor Hampshire, do you have a seconder for that motion?
Councillor McLeod
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:11:20
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 0:11:22
Deputy Provost, I'll formally seconder
Thank you
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:11:26
We will go straight to the vote to continue the item.
I don't understand what the financial implications would be.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:11:41
We are asking to support a principle and write three letters.
Is no paper so expensive that there is some significant financial
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 0:11:46
implication of writing
three letters?
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:11:48
I don't understand why the point has been made.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:11:52
I wonder if Councillor Hampshire could explain it further.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:11:56
We have just been explained that we can't have any more debate once that motion, once
the motion has been put, the proposed motion by Councillor Hampshire has been put forward
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:12:09
and seconded, we cannot take it any further than that.
So we will go straight to a vote.
So this is a motion from Councillor Hampshire and Councillor MacLeod
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:12:21
to continue the item
to allow for discussion at the cross party working group.
I read the roll in alphabetical order and if members could advise whether they vote
to continue or not to continue.
Councillor Eichter continues.
Councillor Bennett.
Continue.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:12:51
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:12:51
continue. Councillor McLeod. Continue. Councillor Mainsy. Not continue.
Councillor Ritchie. Continue. Councillor Trotter. Not. And Councillor Yorkston. Continue.
So we've got 12 votes in favour of continuing the item, 5 votes against. So
the motion is carried and the item will be continued and we'll move on to the
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:13:39
business. Thank you. Can we have the next item of business? The next item is a notice of motion. It's the local heat and energy efficiency strategy and

9. Notice of Motion: Local Heat and Energy Efficiency Strategy: Application for Scottish Government Support – Motion Submitted by Councillors Jardine and McIntosh

application for Scottish Government support. This motion has been put forward
by Councillors Jardine and McIntosh. Excuse me, Councillor Jardine. Thank you. In moving this
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:14:02
motion I expect it will receive similar treatment as the last one but I
Encourages all to focus on the art of the possible to echo the can -do approach many of our communities are already harnessing
In moving this motion
I also recognize the role of East Lothian Council in this as the statutory provision of so many critical services and
the lead strategic authority
Furthermore just one week after a critical budget meeting. I'm painfully aware of the resource limitations. We continue to face in years ahead and
moving this motion I seek to recognize the commitment, vision and drive many in
our community are already demonstrating as they seek to engineer opportunities
for the benefits of technology to move forward this district heating approach
and especially to those with the vision of harnessing waste heat from industry
to provide real community benefit and seek to contribute hugely to the
community wealth building agenda. They have a vision of harnessing the
energy wasted and to recycle the wealth currently being burned off by private
industry for wider community gains. I recognize that there are many motivating
factors for communities exploring this approach. Some rural communities are off
gas network and are looking for far more efficient ways of tackling ever -rising
fuel prices, another issue that we've had highlighted to us in the press today. For
all of us however the climate crisis we face requires us all to find ways of
harnessing proven technology and working in new ways to solve problems both globally and
locally.
Some of the work towards such transformational change is far more incremental but no less
challenging especially as there's very little time to lose.
I believe the last point in our motion is how we continue to move that needle on the
dial even by just a small amount.
At this point I want to thank Mr Montgomery and Miss Fortune for their openness in discussing
the original motion and helping us find wording that they can work with in terms of that next
incremental step and the potentially long journey for those particular heat network
ideas.
But at this point, while we await the outcome of feasibility study stage, they are basically
wonderful ideas.
I am grateful to them for their candour about their concerns and reassurance that officers
do not wish to block the development.
In the Preamble to the Motion written, I state that the Scottish Government's Heat Network
Support Unit exists to provide support, guidance and, where appropriate, funding for local
authorities engaged in exploring heat network potential.
Through discussion with officers in respect of the motion, there is a recognition that
what's being explored for East Lothian may not have been on the radar of civil servants
in devising the existing guidance.
At this point I want to highlight that this administration will potentially respond to
this call for continuing discussions with the support unit by demanding that the Scottish
government take all the risk.
or that the risk needs to sit elsewhere, just not with us.
I state again at this point we're not talking about any organisation taking on any risk
other than that which has already been committed through the commissioning of a feasibility study.
What happens next needs to be based on a solid understanding of what the opportunities actually are,
who the partners may be and where funding might actually be possibly available.
Our motion simply seeks to give officers a clear steer on the need to continue the work in this space and to specifically engage with the next work support unit to seek clarification on how formal support might best be secured at a time when the feasibility study is being carried out by the community project.
This would enable us to keep up some momentum if the feasibility study proves to have met it in pursuing.
At that stage, we can come back and discuss further what role East Lothian Council would play in any further development of these wonderful ideas.
I move the amended motion.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:18:20
Do you have a seconder?
Councillor Jardine?
Councillor McIntosh?
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:18:27
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:18:27
Yeah, thanks.
Well, I had prepared some remarks
imagining that we'd be seconding it
in a fairly normal circumstance.
But I feel like we're probably not
going to get to the debate, because I think clearly this
is going to be suggested to continue as well.
So I'm going to just probably improvise a bit here.
I don't really understand why we need to delay
on either of these motions.
In particular, today we heard news,
if you've looked at the headlines,
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:18:52
that energy costs for an average household
will rise again this spring and will now
be at 3 ,000 pounds more than they were before the Ukraine invasion. It is not a day to delay
on something that could be helping our constituents with their fuel poverty. And I don't think
that if any of you are sitting, getting emails or sitting in surgeries and hearing people
come to you, you know, still having to choose between heating anything, that you'll be able
to look them in the eye and say that you were perfectly happy to punt this month down the
road. We know that delay costs opportunity. This time last year, we had a feasibility
study application ready to go to the Heat Network Support Unit. I was assured several
times by officers that it was almost going to go, we were getting ducks in a row and
it was going to go off. It didn't go off and we then missed the opportunity to get that
money. The money ran out and it went to other councils and the only reason we're now having
a feasibility study is through the generosity of East Lammermere Community Council. They
need a partner that will actually empower them the way our council plan says we do and
And you all sit there talking with your sound bites about how you want to work with communities
and you want to listen to communities.
And then when you're asked to actually get in and do some work with the community, you
want to punt it down the road and say that it's up to the Scottish Government to help.
Well, the Scottish Government will help.
We need to apply to the Heat Network Support Unit, which is the civil service department
that is set up to help.
And I just think it's so ridiculous that you could be looking at East Lamamire Community
Council and saying, thank you very much for donating that £95 ,000, but we can't be bothered
getting an application off to get to get some government support or turning
around and saying to Pencaitlin Community Council well we see that
you've got aspirations around a district heat network but we're going to wait
five six months before we open that door to getting possible support we know that
that door other councils will be going through that door in the meantime so if
we wait until the next cross party budget group that's in April frankly
that's in April because in the absence of some key staff I've been the only
person trying to push to get meetings of that cross party group in the calendar
and it's been like rolling a stone uphill trying to get these meetings in.
We pushed that to April, the following council meeting is June. This could
really delay and we could lose another opportunity for Scottish Government
support to take these brilliant ideas forward and it is your constituents and
our constituents who will lose out if we do that. So I really would urge you not
to just punt this down the road for reasons that you've not even explained.
I don't know how you're going to explain this to your constituents but we've got
a good motion here that just says there's some fantastic work happening in
community some really great ideas and ways that we could tackle the problems of fuel poverty and
climate change with one amazing project and it's time to try and bring everybody together
around the table and the heat network support unit need to be part of that. That is all this
motion says so I don't understand why there would be any need to delay it for possibly four months
when in fact Lynne and I reached out to the administration about this motion last week when
when the papers went in we've had really productive discussions with officers the administration
could have been part of that if they'd wanted to be and I think we've got work doing that
everybody can live with and I can see absolutely no reason to continue it but I'm sure it's going
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:21:58
to be anyway. Thank you Councillor McIntosh. Councillor Hampshire. Thank you Provost and
as I've already said to the previous motion this motion that's in front of us has been amended
It's still looking for us to engage with the Scottish Government and the application process clearly says that the organisation whose applies will absorb the risk on the project.
this council financial position is unable to do that so I would propose that
we continue this to look at the details of the implications of this motion and
then we can take a decision. I do support weak networks but I can't allow
this council to take on the risk that could come from a development of this
scale so I propose we continue this item do you have a seconder councillor
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:23:01
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 0:23:03
Hampshire councillor mccloud let's follow a seconder thank you councillor
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:23:09
mccloud we will now go straight to the vote and the clerk will do a roll call
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:23:17
vote so as with the previous motion and could members please indicate whether
they wish to continue the motion or not continue it
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:23:24
councillor ear Brune writers
CouncillorsNO
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:23:37
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:23:38
and Councillor McLeod. Continue.
Councillor Menzies. What?
Councillor Ritchie. Continue.
Councillor Trotter. Not.
And Councillor Yorkston. Continue.
And as before that's 12 votes in favour and 5 votes against.
So the motion is continued.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:24:16
Thank you. If we can move to the next item of business.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 0:24:20
Now we go back to item 3 as listed on the agenda.
This is the chief social work officer's annual report for 2023 24.
Oh, sorry, I do apologize.

2. Quarter 3 Financial Review 2024/25 – Report by the Executive Director for Council Resources

Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:24:33
Item two is the quarter three financial review for 2024 25.
This is a report by the executive director for council resources.
Mr Henderson, do you want to give the report?
Thank you, Deputy Provost.
Good morning, council.
The report provides an update on the council in year financial position at the end of December 2024.
The report sets out a more detailed analysis of spending projections relative to approved budgets
and it's worth highlighting the key areas. We'll start with the general services position.
Section 3 .7 notes that at the end of December the council is forecasting an overspend of 6 .3 million
which is an improvement on the 8 .5 million figure reported at quarter two.
The planned use of reserves is just under 1 .9 million with a further 1 .7
million of earmarked reserves to fund several one -off costs. The council has
received two one -off VAT rebates. As noted in previous financial updates the
council has received a rebate of 1 .4 million in relation to sports and
leisure dating back several years and since the quarter two report a further
rebate of £275 ,000 has been received for coastal car parking charges. These are
both one -off benefits. Taking the planned use of reserves and the one -off EAT
benefit into account, the unfunded overspend forecast is around £1 .1 million,
a reduction in the £3 .7 million figure reported at Quarter 2. The main
reasons for the forecast overspend are set out in section 3 .14 of the report
and are within children's services, homelessness, unachieved savings as well as pressures in the IJB.
Section 3 .16 sets out the main mitigations that are partially offsetting the pressure.
There is a requirement to deliver £7 .9 million of plans recurring efficiencies
and at this stage it's expected that just over £2 million of savings won't be achieved in year.
This is set out in further detail in section 3 .21 of the report.
Since the council approved the project, there has been further funding received from the
Scottish Government and this is set out in section 3 .24 of the report and in more detail
in Appendix 3.
There are several risks and other factors to the in -year position set out in section
3 .18.
Longer term risks are set out in sections 3 .55 to 3 .57.
At this stage there is a forecast overspending IJB delegated services and this will be managed
in accordance with the scheme of integration.
Section 3 .19 sets out the Council approved control measures within which the CMT is responsible
for applying to mitigate the pressures identified.
Turning to the capital forecast, the report sets out reported expenditure of £65 million
pound to date against an updated budget of £118 million. Projections for the year are forecasting
spend of around £108 million. More detail relating to key risks and variables is set out in section
3 .36 to 3 .42 of the report with more detail setting out individual projects in appendix 4.
The report also sets out an update on treasury and that is shown in section 3 .43 to 3 .49
and further information provided in Appendix 5.
Finally in relation to the house and revenue account,
Section 3 .5 to 3 .54 provides a summary of the overall position
for both revenue and capital, with more detail in Appendices 6 and 7.
In terms of revenue, HRA is forecast to be around breakeven at the end of the year.
The HR capital actual spend is around £18 million at the end of December,
with current projections indicating that £28 million will be spent by year -end,
slightly below the approved budget and that's just that is due to to slippage
in some of the start dates in the new council housing sites and that was
factored into the budget that was approved last week. In conclusion while
this is an improved position than what was reported at quarter two, there is
still an alliance and one -off mitigations including the use of
reserves in the VAT debates without which the overspend this year would be
significantly higher. The budget approved last week by council targets additional
funding into a number of areas of pressure, including children's and adult social work.
As noted in the budget report, the Council still faces significant challenges to balance
its budget beyond 2526.
Recommendations are set out in section 2 .1 of the report.
Thank you, Deputy Provost, I'm happy to take any questions.
Thank you, Mr Henderson.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:29:18
If we can move into questions.
Does anyone have any questions?
It's on page 34, 3 .8, Mr Henderson.
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 0:29:35
It says there's a plan use of the transformation fund and other ring fence funds.
Can I have an example, please, of the other ring fence funds that the money will be used
for?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor McLeod. This includes money that we carry forward each year for
areas like East Lovane Works and Rapid Housing Transition. So these monies are used in subsequent
years to fund one off additional expenditure. The transformation funding includes things
such as the ledger projects, digital transformation and asset review work that's ongoing.
Thank you. Thank you, Councillor McLeod. Thank you, Mr. Henderson.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:30:20
Councillor Jardin, next please. Thank you, Mr. Henderson. Just first of all to thank
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:30:26
you and your colleagues for the plethora of responses that we got to an awful lot
of questions that we have put forward for this council meeting. I would like
to discuss the ones around the IJB in particular. At 3 .14 and 3 .31 I just wonder if you could
explain how the projected overspend within the IJB is to be handled.
Thanks for your question, Councillor Jardin. I think we said before at last meeting that
as for the IJB to determine how its reserves are deployed in line with the integration
scheme. At the moment the IJB general reserve balances wouldn't be sufficient to fully mitigate
the overspends which are forecast across all IJB services. The reality is that any remaining
overspends at the end of the year will be put back to partners to cover and understand
as the chair of IJB has written to both partners highlighting the forecast year end position
and the financial risks that may fall to each partner.
Thank you, so that's Councillor Actar as chair of the IGB.
In terms of the Council's responsibility for elements of that overspend, what are we doing
to reduce the need for external care homes and commission services that are reported
as the main cause for the overspend?
So there has been over the last few years an increased scrutiny on the budget position,
what is called grip and control.
Amongst the number of things that are being done,
recruitment is reviewed on a weekly basis by a panel
that's chaired by the chief officer.
And posts are only approved whether there's a compelling
business or legislative requirement.
And the IJB council services also identified a number of
efficiencies for 24 -25.
And these are scrutinized at the monthly financial
overview meeting again chaired by the chief officer.
A number of those savings have been achieved,
some are currently being progressed to be achieved
and others may take a little longer to deliver.
In addition, there's a commissioning board
which reviews decision making around placements
and that our packages are aligned to need.
And as part of the controls that are in place,
there is a daily care at home huddle
along with resource panels to oversee risk allocation
and use of care at home and care at home placements.
There is some evidence that placements are reducing,
but we do also see that the complexity
of some of the clients increases,
which has led to some pressures as well.
And it's probably worth just reminding that
within all that, the IJB has to ensure
it meets its statutory responsibilities
to keep people safe,
along with the demand pressures that have contributed to that.
Final point I would just make in that is obviously the budget we approved last
week includes significant investment in IJB areas which recognizes some of the
pressures that we are facing in these areas.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:33:39
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:33:41
Thank you and my last question is really possibly for Mr. Hood. In terms of what's just been presented to us, is there are there other options that we need to consider in terms of the council to
assist reducing those costs.
Will I let Mr Houdon answer that deputy provost? Yes.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:34:04
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:34:05
Presenting Officer - 0:34:06
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:34:06
Presenting Officer - 0:34:13
Thank You councillor Jardin for your question. I think as Mr Henderson has
Describe there are a series of controls that we have in place to to look at the the expenditure that we're incurring
And making sure that we are prioritizing that expenditure towards those residents in greatest risk greatest need and only
providing
Services that meet that need at this time. So we do that through the daily care at home huddles
We do that through the resource panels that we have in place to scrutinize those
those
opportunities through I think through our wider strategic piece of work
I think there is pieces of work on going through the change boards and the program boards
To look at how we deliver our services how we do that on a integrated joint basis across health and social care
To look at those opportunities in terms of actually delivering what we want to deliver for the residents of East Lothian
But at the lowest cost as well and meeting their their needs
Very happy to kind of bring back specific proposals in terms of that
that we have taken through the IJB in terms of that.
I think it is a ongoing basis in terms of that
grip and control, looking at all of the kind of
day -to -day operational things and aligning it
to our strategic plan, which we're going through
a refresh in 2025 of in terms of what those priorities are.
Okay, one final point if you'll indulge.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 0:35:34
So in terms of the risk levels that we're looking at
for individuals in the community, do we have,
are we at a point where we need to revise that risk level
in terms of what we're looking at,
or are you confident that you'll be able to make,
use the existing measures to continue with the risk level
that we're looking at?
Presenting Officer - 0:35:58
Thank you for the follow up.
I think that's a really challenging dynamic,
because the risk levels that we are managing at the moment
are already those people at the highest levels of risk,
and that balance on a day -to -day basis
in terms of those clients and residents
who have got critical and substantial needs.
We don't offer support anymore for those clients
who have lower levels of needs,
and we signpost them for, for example, third sector,
voluntary organizations and our partners
to be able to provide that support.
I think that is clearly a challenge
for all of the members of staff on a daily basis
in terms of getting that balance of risk right.
I think there is always things further that we can do and we will continue to explore that in terms of different models of working
And how we can actually develop that going forward
But I think the risk that has been articulated by our professional colleagues
I think we've got the chief social work officer report later on that will highlight some of that
I think is we are probably at more close to the limit in terms of that risk threshold that we're able to
Safely manage and keep our residents safe
Thanks for that
Jeremy Findlay - Councillor - 0:37:01
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:37:02
Happy with those responses question. Yeah. Thank you
So just keeping things flowing on my screen. I've got counselors Finley trotter
actor and the last questions will be asked by
Council remains this is just beat Nicole
Council Macintosh
Yeah, so if I can get council Finley in first, yes, thank you chair
Jeremy Findlay - Councillor - 0:37:27
I
but on the top of page 38 income generation is 500 ,000 pounds will not be achieved.
Could you indicate where this is where these underachievements are?
And the sentence goes on saying work is progressing to develop proposals and should they be implemented
and the income will be generated.
Is there an implication here that they might not be implemented?
Thanks for your question, Councillor Finlay.
So I think previously we've noted that there are several options being explored to increase
income including advertising and sponsorship, let's and bookings, burial, solar energy,
town centre, car parking charges, visitor levy, maximising income from council tax,
business rates and government grants.
Those are still being taken forward and when there are proposals ready to be brought forward
they will be.
At the moment we won't generate that income before the end of this financial year.
The aim is to try and generate that during 25 -26.
If I could have a follow up on that please.
I presume when you mentioned car parking charges you're referring to North Berwick that was
supposed to have had income generated in the current financial year. Are you confident
that the income that is supposedly going to be generated in the new financial year will
actually be generated?
I think going back to what I said, it will depend if and when the scheme is implemented
before we know what income we will receive and obviously the longer it
takes to implement then the less income that will be achieved in 25 26 okay thank
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 0:39:29
you thank you
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:39:30
Council Councilor Trotter
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 0:39:33
Give me one second
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:39:40
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 0:39:42
Thanks, yeah
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 0:39:45
I've got your three questions
These point one six on page 36 staff and under spends has allowed us to call back approximately three million and
and it seems fairly positive when they face it.
What impact, if any, does this have
on our public services and our residents?
Thank you for your question, Councillor Trotter.
Within the report, section 3 .19 sets out
the mitigations approved by the council
and notes for recruitment that post will only be filled
if there is an obvious detrimental impact
on the three agreed short -term council plan priorities
from not doing so and it requires CMT, EMT sign off. We do have a staff turnover
saving target in the budget over two million pound and as noted in section
3 .16 that will be met and exceeded. The higher overall
underspending staffing is reflective of the challenging job market and also the
level of staff turnover. There have been some impacts with some reductions in
library opening hours where staff turnover has led to vacancies which
haven't been fully filled. That's meant reduced access to warm space and many
other library facilities for residents. Where possible the service has worked to
find alternative options for regular groups and activities by moving them to
different days rather than having them cancelled. Worth noting though that library
opening hours will increase from the 1st of March. Museum opening hours were
also reducing 2024 in line with agreed budget savings and this continues again
with those reduced accesses to warm space and impacting on some events and
there's also been some temporary reductions in community centre opening
hours which has impacted on the activities available. From an
education point of view we have mentioned as well there's been some
staffing vacancies there and again those have been covered from existing staff
including those in leadership and management roles
and reorganization of smaller classes where appropriate.
Thanks.
To follow into that,
I think, well, one, I think it'd be helpful,
and two, would it be possible,
because we're talking about, obviously,
shortages and recruitment problems,
would it be possible to get Virginia the plan
and how we're going to treat and can be helpful to every Councillor to know what the plan was going forward in regards to the services that are missing.
People that are not coming into the Council. Would that be possible?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:42:30
Councillor Trotter, I can check that. Probably I can give you an
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 0:42:33
example from my own service.
The market for accountants is very challenging,
qualified accountants, and we have struggled
to recruit qualified staff over a number of years.
We decided to take a different approach at that point
and implemented a trainee accounting scheme.
We've currently got about five trainee accountants
in my team, and that has allowed us to bring people in
and to develop them to fill the gaps.
That obviously isn't suitable in all areas
of the Council but it's an example of where we've tried to think differently and to try
and look at other ways of not only bringing people in but developing people who would
build a career here with the Council.
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 0:43:20
Thanks, can I have another question? Thanks, Charlie. 347 on page 41, can you explain the
term PPP and how it works and the impact of flexibilities? There's a couple of other questions
we can answer that first.
Again, thanks for your question.
So PPP, we should be more careful when we write these things.
So it's a public -private partnership.
So PPP contracts are usually long -term arrangements,
which involve private sector resources being used
to deliver upfront capital investment and public sector assets.
That's then recovered from the public bodies
through revenue payments throughout the duration of the contract.
The council's made use of that model for six of its secondary schools and also a
number, a small number of leisure facilities.
Can you clarify the impact of the increased pressures for PPP on the overall financial position?
Is it a temporary effect or is it likely to be ongoing?
So members will recall council's decision to apply fiscal
flexibility is allowing the council to spread the cost of contract repayments
over the life of the PPP assets rather than the life of the contract. That did
result in a one -off increase to general reserves which has been earmarked for
enabling transformation work to progress. Over applying the flexibilities it
doesn't give rise to any change to contractual payments therefore the
sums that are set aside within earmarked reserves for this change do not represent
cash held by the council. It means the council will need to borrow in order to spend these amounts.
The under borrowing position referred to basically just means that the council has an underlying need
to borrow which has been met in the short term by other cash balances. In terms of this some we would
recommend or consider in the future, we'd need to be considered against a range of options for future
projects to assess overall benefit and both financial and future affordability as well as
future revenue budget consequences of those arrangements.
Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:45:30
OK with that, Councillor Trotter.
I now have Councillor Acton.
Thank you, thank you, I oppose.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 0:45:35
It's a question for Mr Hood and Councillor Jardin made reference to what I was going
to ask as well, which was around, across the board well understood the level of pressures
and challenges health and social care face and that's why there was a significant uplift
in the budget specifically for for the IGIC and it was just to outline what
measures you'll be putting in place to support some of those staffs and some of
those care packages and also some of those community -based interventions. I
don't know whether you able to share some of that with us but or provide that
when it's the feedback on how that money spent because we know over and over
again that we're looking at community -based interventions that are
going to support people and that are struggling in the in the whole system at
Presenting Officer - 0:46:25
a moment thank you councillor actor I think there's probably a wider
conversation in terms of that we can have obviously need to take something
through the IJB we we do follow in the council meeting last week have the
offer from East Lothian Council which does represent significant additional
resource from East Lothian Council and that will go a long way in terms of
addressing some of the challenges that we know exist whether it's the
complexity of our clients that we're dealing with, the increase in age and
population particularly for our most elderly residents but also looking at
some of the kind of challenges that we've got around price increases for
care at home contracts and care at home and care homes so I think part of what
we will need to take through the IJB is that
overarching plan, once we have an offer from NHS Lothian
as well, in terms of how that resource is directed,
making sure we direct it at the most vulnerable
in terms of that we're trying to support,
supporting community services, delivering the ambition
of, for example, transition from hospital
to community -based services, and what that looks like
in terms of supporting our residents.
So happy to have further conversations,
but I think it's probably a bit premature
to start talking about specifics when we've only got
part of the offer from from East Lothian Council at this stage. Happy with those
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:47:48
responses Councillor Acton. Thank you. Now we have Councillor Gilbert.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:47:54
Thank you
chair. I have a number of questions I'll take them one at a time. So in regard to the
asset review when we say in time what period of time are we looking at and
and what factors are impacting more rapid progress?
Thank you for your question, Councillor Gilbert.
So the Asset Review team is now preparing
to launch the place -based engagement with members,
stakeholders and the public across our communities.
In the next few weeks, they'll share how the engagement
will run, the way information will be shared,
including digital and in -person events,
and the timescales for engagements.
They aim us to report back to full council in August
with recommendations around 29 built assets across all areas of East Lothian. Recommendations
are likely to centre upon greater utilisation and access of assets and provide solutions
towards meeting the Council's drive to meet climate change targets and budget requirements,
but will include which assets should be retained, offered up for asset transfer and community
ownership and which could be disposed of to provide efficiency within service delivery.
Okay, thank you.
And just a quick follow up and that just does that mean in effect that the end of August
is the end of the asset review, albeit completed?
I don't think it completes the full asset review.
Mr Reid might want to comment further on that, but it will be the completion of that stage
or the completion of the report on that stage.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:49:26
Mr Reid, do you wish to make any comment?
Yes, thanks for your question, Councillor Galburt.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:49:30
The asset review will go long beyond August.
It's the place -based component part for the 29 assets
within the six clusters that will complete
in terms of August recommendations.
There is no, given that we haven't started the process,
there's likely to be complexity in that.
And there may be some assets
that require further statutory consultation.
The place -based work is an engagement
if there be statutory consultation
and that would go beyond August
if members were minded to support.
And then there will continue to be further asset work
around offices, community buildings
in terms of backlog maintenance and asset conditions.
So I think this will be an ongoing development project
to make sure that we get the best out of our assets
and make sure that we plan for the future,
both with the ones that we retain
and the ones that we have to develop.
Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. Reid.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:50:27
Okay, thank you for that.
Can I go ahead with my second question?
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:50:29
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:50:31
No problem, Mr. Gilbert, thank you.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:50:33
In infrastructure, we have overspends
in facilities support services,
the active business unit, roads network and waste services.
Could we have more information on these, please?
Thank you again.
So overall infrastructure is forecast
to be under budget by year end.
Some areas are overspent,
but some of that is largely related to 10 -year efficiencies,
such as income generation target,
review of the management at sports facilities
and the full year saving from garden maintenance.
Other pressures will be operational.
What's progressing to ensure that all of the savings
that we are trying to deliver are delivered in 25, 26.
And the garden maintenance is an example of something
that will be achieved fully in 25 -26 if demand remains as it was in 24 -25.
The only reason we didn't achieve that in year was because of the timing of the day it started,
so it didn't start till the summer, but a full year impact would have delivered the saving.
There are some underspends in the service which are mitigating some of the pressures,
and again that's largely linked to the vacancies that we discussed earlier.
Thank you for that. You may have already partly answered my next question but it's also an infrastructure video of underspends in strategic asset and capital plan management, roads trading activity and transportation.
Do these underspends pose any risks to the council or to the services we offer?
Thanks for the question and having discussed this with Mr Reedy he's confident that they don't at this stage.
I have a final question if I can go ahead with it.
You can, Councillor Gilbert.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:52:24
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:52:26
Do the underspends in communities and partnerships pose any risk to the council or to the public,
especially since one is in protective services?
Thank you. Community and partnership services are prioritising their statutory service delivery
in line with the council plan priorities.
They're managing budgets and delivering underspends
where possible.
All statutory duties are being met
with unprotected services.
Where vacancies have arisen in non statutory teams,
they have been frozen either in full or in part.
That's led to some reduction in activities undertaken.
However, a debt based approach has been applied
to ensure minimal impact.
The team are also undergoing process redesign activity
to reduce time spent on administrative duties
freeing up capacity for core duties. Again having checked that with Miss
Rogers, she's confident that all priorities are being met.
That's great, thank you for answering my questions.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:53:29
We now have Councillor Menses.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 0:53:35
Thank you chair. Most of the mines are on the HRA part of the paper and we go for them 3 .5 onwards.
So it mentions utilities, what specific challenges are being faced with the utilities and what steps are being taken to overcome them?
Thanks for your question Councillor Minsy. So mainly meter issues are the issues within debt relating to debt -laden payment meters.
And it can take a number of weeks to clear those down. Another issue is that smart meters simply don't work.
There are no dedicated helplines for councils, so when matters are needed, utility firms
prioritise their engineers to tenant aid properties over voids.
This is a national issue where the council has limited influence.
Alaco is working on behalf of all housing providers and is lobbying the Scottish Government
who have recently sought assurance from utility providers that local authority voids will
be treated equitably. Housing services are also in advanced discussions with a void energy
provider which should reduce utility related delays.
Thank you for that Mr Henderson. Just further down on the same paper it speaks about an
investment in overtime. How effective has that investment in overtime been so far and
is there any measurable impact on cleaning backlog?
So there has been obviously an increase in the level of void numbers, however overall
void numbers have reduced by over 25 % this financial year to date and that's from 289
to 216 over the last 12 months.
The alaco analysis shows a reduction in percentage of lettable properties from 3 .26 to 2 .6 percent
and that's lower than the current Scottish peer group.
This ties into information that Ms. Maclire has been sharing with me during budget monitoring
and probably this quarter is the first time that I've seen a bit of a turn in the financial side of it.
So it's came down slightly.
Obviously, from my financial background, I want to see that over a sustained number of
quarters before I can say with certainty that the financial tide has turned, but that's
now starting to back up some of the operational data that we've been seeing.
Thank you, and that does sound positive.
You've mentioned budget monitoring, my next question and last question, it will be delighted
to hear, is on appendix one of the budget monitoring.
in and there's some disparity between the budgeted amount for community housing group
and the actual spend. Can we have some more details on that please?
Yes thanks again. So the pressures in community housing, there's probably two main pressures
in there. One is from the under -liver private sector housing grant saving and the other
is some of the pressures that we're seeing in homelessness. I'm currently working with
Ms McGuire to pull together and finalise a proposal that will deliver the private sector
housing grant for saving in full 25 -26.
The people will come forward in that.
In terms of homeless, that was identified as one of our key pressures in the budget
model and there has been additional funding approved last week which will help to support
and reduce that pressure going forward.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
Last question.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:57:06
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:57:07
Last question goes to Councillor McEwen.
Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:57:10
My question is on the HRE as well.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:57:17
It's on Appendix 7 and it's on the energy efficiency fund.
So I see that we budgeted two and a half million for that but only spent so far 714 ,000.
And I'm just thinking back to the conversations we had around the budget with L -Trap who were
clearly telling us that tenants wanted to see this energy efficiency work progress
and that the point I made earlier about you know bills are set to go up again
this spring further putting more people into fuel poverty. Why is there a
sudden trend what are we going to do to make sure that we spend the budget and
just relatedly I notice we're still forecasting that we'll have spent for
the year 1 .98 million so I'm just wondering what are we going to do
differently that we'll manage to spend 1 .2 million this quarter when we've only
managed to spend 700 ,000 in the previous three quarters. Thanks Councillor
McIntosh. So the spend today is fairly low compared to the forecast.
The forecast is based on what that's planned to be completed and Ms McGlion
may wish to supplement on that. In terms of the spend, a lot of that spend I
think the last time we spoke in this there is expenditure areas under
modernization such as doors and windows which meet the criteria of
energy efficiency expenditure and there is significant investment in that ongoing.
It remains a priority for next year to make sure we are spending as much as that two and
a half million pound as possible.
I don't know if Ms Maguire wants to supplement on the work being completed before the end
of the year.
Presenting Officer - 0:58:46
Ms McGuire, do you wish to supplement to that?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:58:52
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:58:53
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:58:54
Presenting Officer - 0:58:56
Ms McGuire, do you wish to supplement?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:58:57
Presenting Officer - 0:58:57
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 0:58:58
Presenting Officer - 0:58:58
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 0:58:59
Presenting Officer - 0:58:59
Just to supplement on that, so the energy efficiency budget line, we were quite clear
at the beginning that that was always going to be quite challenging until we know what
you know what the new guidance will be from Scottish Government in terms of the
new energy efficiency standard and that is still to come out but I would just
like to reassure members that in terms of energy efficiency we are prioritizing
fabric first and we have a significant window and door program as Mr. Henderson
said out there as well as roofing and rough casting and as part of the increase in
the this year's rent we have prioritized an additional million pounds from
organization taking on board tenants asks and in terms of their priorities
around repairs and also energy efficiency and that additional million
pounds will help bolster again an increase in our window and door program
as well as roofing and rough casting. The two and a half million we will
continue to explore opportunities you know to increase the energy efficiency
further but I think it will be until it won't be until we've got new guidance
from Scottish Government to know exactly you know what we're going to focus that
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:00:07
additional money towards. So I was going to ask there can you use it for solar panels but do you
not know yet is that one of the things you need to wait on the guidance? So we can use that for
Presenting Officer - 1:00:13
solar panels and we do have a program I think that program at the moment has been it's been a real
focus as you're aware on the private sector through the Ease apps funding and we are doing
a lot of work where we're looking to collaborate in terms of you know opportunities to do council
housing together with the private sector to improve efficiencies in that area.
One more follow up question, is that okay?
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:00:36
Yeah because you've mentioned before Ms McGuire about if you were to look to when we're trying
to expand our accounts of housing stock that acquisitions on the open market are like in
lots of ways less attractive than new builds largely because of the energy efficiency.
So I mean are you allowed to use this money to take, to put towards like for instance
something that you did buy on the open market or not a new build would you be
allowed to then match the purchase price points of energy efficiency right away in order to
Presenting Officer - 1:01:09
upgrade it like before you got any tenants in at all? Again I mean at the
moment we do ensure that any new stock that we're buying on the open
market meets our housing quality standard and that's first and foremost
and again we will do the same as what we're doing on our existing stock in
improving the energy efficiency through fabric first.
If there are opportunities that align with some of the other works we're doing, we'll
take that on board and use that fund for that.
But we've not got any specific prioritization work around those OMA's.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:01:39
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. McGuire.
So that's the last of the questions.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:01:46
I'd like to thank Mr. Henderson for his report.
You did handle a fair range of questions here.
We will now move into the debate.
Councillor Hampshire.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:01:57
Thank you, Provost.
First of all, I would like to welcome this report.
It is some good news that we have had in finance, the fact that our forecast overspending quarter
2 was 8 .5.
That has now been reduced to 6 .3.
That is thanks to the hard work of staff at all levels across the Council and all departments
to be able to continue to deliver efficiencies within their service but also at the same
time deal with the growing demand they have to deliver on.
In the report here it is quite clear going forward, although we were able to agree across
party budget, which has put significant additional investment into some of the areas that are
under real pressure, going forward we have got some difficult decisions to make. You
have heard on the assets that we will have to consider what assets we are going to continue
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:03:01
to keep and how we are going to operate them. It is not going to be easy. We have some difficult
choices in front of us and hopefully we can work together to deliver these efficiencies
for the benefit of the people here with the Nice Lothian. Thank you, Provost.
Thank you, Councillor Hampshire. We have now got Councillor Mims.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:03:24
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:03:24
Thank you, Chair. I really thank Mr Henderson and all the officers for the report. I thought
it was really informative and it has led to a real variety of questions which is always
good for not just for us as councillors but for the public to see and it did
mention warm spaces within that and I'm delighted to see within my own community
and beyond that warm spaces has been implemented because it was this council
that voted it down I think October November 2022 and I hope we take that
common sense approach of doing the right thing for the right reasons on other
things like the two previous motions that have just been kicked into the
That's me.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Menses.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:04:03
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:04:04
Now we have Councillor Jardine.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:04:06
Thank you, Deputy Provost.
I'll echo some of what Councillor Hampshire was saying, that obviously the financial picture
going forward is far from rosy and we all, and I mean we all, officers and elected members
need to do more to make sure that we are listening to the voices of our
constituents and addressing their concerns. We've gone some way in the
budget to do that but it's clear from this report that there are significant
areas where we still need to make sure that we're we're making improvements
into how we're addressing the needs of our communities. Certainly understanding
or us reaching out and helping people understand where some of those pressures
are in terms of what one individual might see as something that they want to see done
compared to the breadth of statutory responsibilities that we have and I think it's going to be
some challenging conversations going forward.
And I would just like to stress that, you know, it's clear that opposition councillors
Others have clearly spent quite a bit of time and effort looking at this report in particular
and scrutinizing it while I think we've only had one question from the administration.
We will continue to make sure that we are as open and transparent with our work as elected
representatives going forward.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 1:05:38
Thank you, Councillor Jardine.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:05:39
We now have Councillor Acta.
Thank you, thank you, Chair.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 1:05:45
and firstly I just want to emcee and we'll see in the next report on the
chief social work officers just the challenges our staff are facing across
the council and that's across many departments and many of those departments
may not deliver health and social care services but they do significantly
impact on the health and social care and staff and the services that they provide
and housing being a prominent factor in that I just want to recognize and have
for the for the minute the hard work that's the staff have carried out in
bringing that overspend down and that can't be underestimated knowing that
there's significant levels of pressure and the rise in demand for our services
for local constituents that we see on a daily basis so I want that noted and for
service managers to pass that on to staff that we acknowledge and recognize
the hard work that you've put into getting that overspend down and there
was a significant increase to the integration joint board and that
significant increase was a recognition of the significant challenges that
department faced and that section face so it's really important as we move
forward that we get a clear report back of how that resource has been spent how
that resource has been spent on and social care on community -based services
and ensuring that people are not going into into acute and I welcome that
report coming back to council because we need to make sure there's clear
governance openness and transparency and that we push at the integration agenda
as far as possible to make sure that we're providing the best possible
services and keeping people safe in our local communities.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:07:16
Thank you Councillor Actar. We now have Councillor Dugdale.
Fiona Dugdale - Councillor - 1:07:22
Thank you Deputy Provost. I just want to thank Mr Henderson and everyone, the authors of this report.
I think it's really important we had the budget setting last week and I know we all understand the situation we are in
and also the hard hard work that all our staff do to maintain services.
I just wanted to note in the report at Children's Services, I know we have an overspend there
and that is something that is demand -led and that we have put money into Children's Services.
But just within that paragraph as well we can see that the overspend is less than it
was in Quarter 2 which I think that's welcome from a financial perspective.
But also from the service perspective, let's congratulate the staff for being able to do
some of that.
but also noted there that some savings from staffing vacancies and we're also
actively recruiting and I know we're coming on to the Chief Social Work Officer's
report later and so I think that's really important as well that we're
trying to fill those vacant posts and to make sure that that services is well
staffed and I think this report was really excellent and in detail and
actually the questions I would have had were answered in this report so I'd like
to thank the staff for writing such an excellent report and allowing me to not
ask a question because it was so well presented. Thank you. Thank you
Councillor Dugdale. And the last comments coming from Councillor McGinn.
Yes, thanks for that and it'll be very brief. I'm aware that we all are meeting and having
conversations regularly with lead officers across every aspect of this report and
definitely as of the council and I'm really really appreciative for that and
more in portfolio areas. I wanted just to make a comment and a thanks in one
particular area Mr. Emmerson had mentioned, our libraries and I really
wanted to express my thanks to our library staff across the county that
their continued support, their dedication, creativity during these challenging times has been fantastic, always serving our communities.
And they have an uncanny ability to adapt to new circumstances. They find innovative ways to connect with people and using the resources we have.
and that that mentality and attitude has made a lasting impact on our communities.
I just want to say that their hard work and their passion does not go unnoticed
and that we really, really appreciate everything that they do.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor McGehee.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:10:04
So there is no need for a roll call vote on this, so are we happy to note this paper?
Great.
If we'd move to the next item.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:10:12
Item 3 is the Chief Social Work Officer's annual report for 2023 -24.

3. Chief Social Work Officer’s Annual Report 2023/24 – Report by the Chief Social Work Officer

This is a report by the Chief Social Work Officer.
Ms Brown.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 1:10:21
Presenting Officer - 1:10:22
Thank you, Convenor, and good morning, Members.
On behalf of the social work professionals in East Lothian, I am delighted to introduce
the Chief Social Work Officer report for 2023 -24.
Section 45 of the Local Government Scotland Act 1994 sets out that every local authority
should have a Chief Social Work Officer.
and there's a statutory requirement that the Chief Social Work Officer produces an annual report about the activities and performances of services across the Council and the Health and Social Care Partnership.
The report reflects the strategic and operational delivery of services across children's social work, justice social work, mental health and adult social work and social care services.
It provides an overview of all professional social work activity through the delivery
of our statutory functions, which are the responsibilities of the Chief Social Work
Officer.
This report is an opportunity to highlight the efforts of all our social work and social
care workforce who work tirelessly to protect people from harm and to support them to live
as safely and as independently as possible in their own homes and communities.
Social work services have a wide range of statutory duties and continuing to meet these
in times of extreme financial pressure remains a challenge.
As Chief Social Work Officer, it's my job to assure members
about social work practice in East Lothian
and be open about those significant challenges
and the profession faces as a result of growth, demand
and national policy expectation.
I feel really confident that we're prioritising
the right evidence -based practice and strategic development
to ensure we're in the best position
to continue to deliver high quality services.
I'm really proud to have the opportunity
to share some of the many achievements from 23 -24, particularly the positive results from the joint
strategic inspections for both adults and children at risk of harm. The assurance we can collectively
take from these fantastic inspection reports is testament to the commitment and resilience of our
social work workforce and the support of all managers and leaders. It's always beneficial
to take time to reflect on our performance, explore and be truly honest about where we can improve
and to make space to recognise their achievements.
It brings the importance of social work and social care into sharp focus
and I never take for granted the skills and commitment of our staff
who regularly go above and beyond to meet the needs of the people that we serve.
I would like to take this opportunity to convey my gratitude to them,
the relentless passion for the work that they do
and for continuing to make East Lothian a place that we can take real pride
and assurance in our social work practices.
Council has asked to note the content of the 23 -24 annual report of the Chief Social Work Officer
and its implications for the provision of social work services in East Lothian
and in their role in assuring the safety and welfare of vulnerable children and adults across the county.
And convener, I'm happy to take questions.
Thank you, Ms Bunn. Does anyone have any questions?
Councillor Trotter?
Brooke Ritchie - Councillor - 1:13:26
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 1:13:27
What is the third paragraph for the challenges that you highlight?
Do you consider there are particular localities where lower levels of resilience both individual
and community are likely to play a part in what this resilience looks like?
Thanks for your question, Councillor Trotter.
Presenting Officer - 1:13:43
There's definitely a range of levels of resilience across the county and they can sometimes be
linked to levels of poverty, to SIMD profile,
and some people certainly have more difficulty
in managing day -to -day life, difficulty and adversity
than others.
I believe that resilience looks like families and people who
are vulnerable having enough care and support and network
to be able to manage day -to -day ups and downs, adversity
and challenge and risk.
Some families are better equipped to manage that
than others.
And when people have fewer networks and ways
to seek support, they're the ones
to become increasingly vulnerable and less resilient
as a result.
So part of our work and social work
is to try and increase people's own networks,
their own ability to seek support,
believe in their own strengths to manage their own problems
without having to seek support from agencies.
And that's a way that we try and work with people
to empower them to believe in themselves to improve
their lives alongside us as well.
Thank you.
Can I have another?
Please, sir.
Can I have another question?
1P68, children with disabilities indicate an increase
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 1:14:47
and complexity for children with disabilities, what does that look like in terms of the challenges
faced by families and carers?
Presenting Officer - 1:14:59
I think it's, you know, we're really acutely aware of how challenging it is to raise a
child who has complex needs or indeed a disability and it can look like very different things
for each different family that comes our way and our approach is to really understand the
family, understand the child, understand their needs and hear from them about what they require
to help them to live the most fulfilling life as possible.
So our parents and carers face a range of challenges and are supported by our disability
services to identify those needs and to plan alongside us how they can best work with services
and their own networks to provide the best care and support for their child who has disabilities.
Thank you.
We now have Councillor Ritchie.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:15:43
Thanks, Deputy Provost.
Brooke Ritchie - Councillor - 1:15:46
Just a really quick one on some of the numbers that we've got.
It's encouraging to see the numbers of children on the downward trends in line with national
trends but also thanks for the hard work of all the staff here.
I was just wondering how confident we are that we have all the data around informal
and kinship care that we know that our numbers are accurate on where those kids are and how many there are.
Thanks for your question Councillor Ritchie. We agree it's positive to see those downward trends
Presenting Officer - 1:16:16
and that's in line with the promise and the service redesign that we undertook to particularly target improving
the numbers of children who require to be cared without with their families. We've put a lot of investment,
and resource investment into kinship care in East Lothian,
seeing that as the best possible alternative
to children who can't remain
with their own parents and carers.
So we're confident that we track those numbers effectively.
We have specific resource groups
that support that cohort of carers
and really value the contribution they make
to the care of the looked after population in East Lothian.
Excellent, thank you.
Happy with those responses.
We now have Councillor McIntosh, if I could ask Councillor Tromb to switch his microphone
off.
Thank you.
Thanks for the report.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:17:06
It's a really interesting report.
Presenting Officer - 1:17:09
Sorry, is that me?
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:17:12
Thank you for the report, it was a really interesting read.
You mentioned in the report the impact of the national fostering crisis and I was at
a briefing about keeping the promise last week and they were saying they were going
to do a national recruitment campaign for foster caterers.
And I just wondered, have we been involved
in any discussions around that?
We'll be able to make sure we're plugged into that
to make the most of any inquiries that come forward
or to see whether we can be particularly targeting messages
or targeting areas.
Yeah, just what work is going on to keep
a conversation around that?
Yeah, thanks for your question.
Presenting Officer - 1:17:46
I think I could not be more involved
in trying to address the national fostering crisis.
and we're very linked in through Social Work Scotland and the Fostering subgroup as well.
We're really keen to make sure that East Lothian's particular challenges are understood
in that national space and you'll know as a council we've invested heavily into fostering
and we are starting to see some fruits of that labour which is really positive but as always
I would like the pace to be quicker and more families to come forward to help care for the
most vulnerable children. We are linked in, Social Work Scotland has a Chief Social Work Officers
network which I'm part of so nationally we help direct and lead that work and
I'll be making sure that East Old Ian is front and centre when it comes to
benefiting from any national scheme that arises from that work.
And so are you quite optimistic about if there's a campaign that might
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:18:31
lead to us getting more foster carers?
Presenting Officer - 1:18:37
I would hope so. It's difficult to predict and campaigns have different levels of success
depending on the time of year, people's financial positions, how secure
people feel in their lives to be able to take a step out of their current career into something
different and you can never really predict how successful a campaign will be. However,
national approach can only be beneficial. It will add weight and strength in a way that
we couldn't do as an individual local authority. I'm looking forward to seeing how that progresses.
Thanks. I've got a couple of questions about the section on children with disabilities
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:19:06
if that's okay?
That's okay. Thank you.
Presenting Officer - 1:19:09
The first one was you mentioned the impact of the care at home
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:19:14
shortages on children that require care and the fact that people are having to use the self -directed support and not always managing to find that appropriate support through that.
I just wondered what is being done about this and how are we making sure we support those families that might really require care at home and not be able to get it?
We share your concerns about the lack of care at home provision for
Presenting Officer - 1:19:34
children in East Lothian
and that's really been the position since COVID.
It's been really tricky to match skilled carers with children who require that type of care.
So we've been trying to do really creative things around the provision of personal assistant care
and also utilising different members of the Families Extended Network to support families to care for children at home.
Ultimately in the world of children with disabilities everyone's needs are assessed and any provision
is based on that assessed need. So budgets and supports in the community, universal services
are matched to that child's care plan that is driven by that assessment. So we try and
be as creative as possible and we do look to utilise other methods of support such as
community supports and also respite provision that is also available for that client group.
I suppose you've just given a really good indication of why that's demand -led and can't necessarily be capped to a particular budget
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:20:28
because then it would not meet the need.
Yeah, it's really tricky and it's also very much impacted by growth in
Presenting Officer - 1:20:36
East Lothian, so what we see is as more houses and more developments are put on stream that we get more families coming in who may have children with complex needs.
So it's definitely demand -led. We are very careful to make sure needs are assessed very carefully and that we are
equitable across the county with what children and families require but also making sure that we respond to crisis and periods of particular
difficulty because we understand that the complexity of caring for children with disabilities can be overwhelming at times.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:21:07
Thanks. And my last question is on home and do we know how many children with a disability are eligible for statutory daycare during school
holidays and out with school hours like Friday afternoons, there's a table that lays out
different ways that children with disabilities are receiving services but it wasn't clear
if that was our total, like what's the total number of children that might be eligible
for statutory daycare, do you know that?
So I don't have those figures to hand, however the figures in the
Presenting Officer - 1:21:32
report refer to the number
of children who are actively open to the children's disability team. Now that will not necessarily
be all children with a disability in East Lothian so those numbers relate to something
quite different so I'm happy to get back to you with those specific figures yes
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:21:48
would you be open to maybe us discussing it through PPRC to have that form part of
the next the ASN reports absolutely okay great we'll follow that up thank you
Presenting Officer - 1:21:57
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:21:59
thank you counsel Macintosh we move to coach Doug deal thank you deputy provost
Presenting Officer - 1:22:02
Fiona Dugdale - Councillor - 1:22:05
and and thank you miss one for for this report and my question are two questions
One was about something we all kind of aware of the increase of the children's population
and the predictions are 17 % by 2028 -29 and we've also noted in that report we have recruitment
challenges and those recruitment challenges don't sit just here in East Lothian but are
Scotland -wide.
I'm assuming that the increase in children's population will come with it perhaps an increase
in the demand for our services.
I'm wondering if there are any initiatives
nationwide at a national level to help tackle
and solve these recruitment challenges.
Thanks for your question, Councillor Dugdale.
Yeah, we remain concerned about recruitment challenges
Presenting Officer - 1:22:51
and social work in general, not just in children's,
but there are really positive developments nationally
regarding the National Social Work Agency
and the creation of a new potentially executive agency
as part of the Scottish government.
We have been working alongside Social Work Scotland to help shape the work of that national
agency and two of the key priorities are going to be around social work education and routes
into the profession as well as workforce planning.
Both of things will be critical in solving any recruitment crisis going forward.
So we are feeling quite confident about the work of that agency to date.
I have got one other question if that's okay.
Fiona Dugdale - Councillor - 1:23:30
Presenting Officer - 1:23:31
Fiona Dugdale - Councillor - 1:23:32
So just following on from that, I was just wondering about the support for staff.
So I know that when recruitment is difficult and there's recruitment challenges, the workload
for the existing staff increases and the pressures with that.
I was just wondering how we are supporting our staff with any kind of physical or emotional
impact on their own health and wellbeing while we're trying to address those recruitment
challenges too.
Thank you for your follow -up question.
Presenting Officer - 1:23:58
Supporting our workforce is an absolute priority at East Lothian for all people who work in
social work and social care services.
We have recently refreshed and relaunched our staff supervision policy with a much stronger
focus on staff wellbeing and support.
We have really close oversight of workloads and the impact of particularly complex situations.
We really rely on staff and leaders at all levels of the organisation to be really open
about any issues or challenges they're facing.
We have a real open door policy
and a real expectation that we can trust each other
to share any concerns about the impact our work is having.
Retaining staff is also a really significant factor for us
and we've got a real focus on learning and development opportunities
and creating work clothes, environments and conditions
that feel sustainable for people working in this often challenging space.
We acknowledge that staff are our hugest asset
and we are committed to looking after everyone's wellbeing.
Thank you very much.
That is really reassuring.
Councillor Gilbert.
Thank you, Jim.
I am just looking at page 97 of the report
on the oversight of private guardianship.
What are the requirements of guardianship
and how do they differ from a part of a tourney
and are there specific cohorts of individuals
for whether this is necessary or not advisable
compared to others?
Thank you for your question.
The difference is that a power of attorney is something that is done proactively when
people still are well enough and have the capacity to put arrangements in place for
their welfare and financial purposes.
And guardianship tends to be something that happens retrospectively when people no longer
have the ability to make those decisions for themselves.
So we advocate strongly for people when they're able to, to proactively pursue powers of attorney to be in place for when the time comes that they might need that.
Yeah, so there's no option to take a guardianship into a pair of attorney, that's just not possible.
I would need to discuss that with my mental health officer colleagues, but my understanding is they're two distinct separate areas of legislation.
OK, thank you. Follow that up offline.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Gilbert.
We now have Councillor Menzies.
Thank you, Chair.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:26:22
I'm going to go to page 92 of the report, and it's justice services and your justice
team.
You speak of the gendered nature of domestic abuse and it's being considered in Sentingsen.
How do you see the establishment of the equally safe leadership partnership and development
of an equally safe strategy for these low -end having a positive impact in respect of the
gender of this abuse and potential of prevention across adult and children's services?
Presenting Officer - 1:26:52
This is a really tricky question, thank you Councillor Menses. It's tricky for me to talk
about the impact that our equally safe work will have on sentencing because when we're
talking about sentencing we're talking about people who are already quite far down the
line of domestically abusive patterns of behaviour. So the use of gendered lenses at that point
it's quite tricky to quantify how beneficial that will be.
The benefit I see in the Equally Safe Leadership Group,
which we've established in East Lothian
and is currently in its early stages
and that forming stage, which we're really excited about,
is ensuring that gendered lenses impact all services
at the earliest possible opportunity
to be given a chance to make a difference
in how people perceive women and girls,
tackling things like misogyny, patriarchy,
all the things that we know slowly perpetuate
attitudes and behaviours that then implement girls and women most significantly in today's society.
So it's difficult for me to directly link sentencing with a gendered lens, but I'm happy to take those conversations offline.
But ultimately what I would want to say is I think it's a great move very slowly and to be taking Equally Safe so seriously.
We've got a really good multi -agency council and elected member group in place,
chaired by Councillor Jardin and we are looking to make sure that we are really holding the
reins of all the actions required and equally safe strategy across all of the planning frameworks
in the council going forward and that will include areas that look at perpetrator behaviour
and holding people to account.
Thank you and that sort of links into my next question and again this is going to be a difficult
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:28:26
one and I want you to understand it's more for the public to be aware that these questions
are being asked rather than just for scrutiny. So the Justice Social Work team and their
work specifically around domestic violence and domestic abuse and you speak of offenders
doing standalone unpaid work without offence focused interventions. Do we have any figures
for repeat offenders within the county and do we have clear pathways for feeding back
to the justice system and more specifically the courts on the effect of not putting in place the
offense focused interventions?
That is a really tricky question. I do have an answer that I've been supported with by the Justice Service Manager.
Presenting Officer - 1:29:11
It's incredibly difficult for us as social workers to
completely affect the disposal of a court. We have the power of persuasion in our report writing,
but ultimately the power lies with the sentencing sheriff.
Criminal justice social workers in East Lothian would never suggest solely unpaid work for
a domestically aggravated offence.
So we're very clear about that.
We would always seek to do work about the perpetrator's behaviour and their attitudes
towards their offending.
Now we would suggest that in our assessment, but that doesn't mean they'll always go with
that in their disposal.
but I can be clear that Eustolian would never seek a standalone unpaid work disposal when
there is opportunity to do work with the offender. Is there a second part of that question that
I've not captured there?
No, it was more do we have a pathway for feeding back to the court, but I think you're clear
that in your proposals it would be that you would lead on that.
Yeah, absolutely really clear about that. In terms of numbers, numbers for reoffending
tend to happen in a three yearly cycle, so we do capture that data and I'm happy to share
that with you offline, albeit I don't think the most recent data is available for another
year but certainly it's something we do track and we do have some feedback available to
the justice system but yeah I can be really clear about what we would expect in reasonable
justice focused, perpetrator focused practice in East Lothian.
Thank you and just a couple of small questions on general justice and not specific to DV
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:30:39
or DA, how hard is it to find unpaid work opportunities within the justice team? Will
the changes in the PVG requirements add to this and can we as a council think about pathways
that might support this further? That's a really interesting question. I think
Presenting Officer - 1:30:56
it can be really tricky to find unpaid work opportunities. Often people are wary about
the types of offenders and people that would be populating certain areas of our communities
And I think there's ways we can maybe think about being more creative about how offenders
can benefit local communities in a way that doesn't then place anyone at additional risk.
So for example, if there was work to do in school grounds, that could be carried out
in holiday periods rather than during the day when children might be present.
I think it'd be very rare that we would be using unpaid work opportunity that would require
a PVG.
So I don't think there'll be a direct correlation there.
that would be very rare indeed for us to be trying to place an offender in a space where
they required a PBG to do unpaid work. So that's not something that comes up often.
And I do think that there is a role for everyone to be thinking creatively about how people
can pay back, learn new skills and benefit themselves and trying to get themselves out
of that offending cycle would benefit everybody, including the offender and the people of East
Lothian. So always up for creative suggestions if there's projects on the go that people
could use the support and time and effort of some of our people because
they're really looking to rehabilitate as well and so it's a win -win so happy to
take any suggestions at any point.
Thank you, that's all my questions. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
Councillor Jardin.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:32:17
Presenting Officer - 1:32:18
Thank you, Chair. A couple of questions.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:32:20
First one I'll take is around adult support and protection, inspection and the multi -agency approach to audit.
I just wondered if you could explore a little bit about what might be required for this
to be developed.
So it has been developed.
Presenting Officer - 1:32:39
So obviously the report is for 23 -24 and things have moved on quite significantly since then.
So there's now a multi -agency group in place that sits under the Adult Protection Subgroup
of the East Lothian and Midlothian Public Protection Committee and they've started to
use the Care Inspector at multi -agency audit tool to apply that to our own adult support
protection work and so that's been a really positive development.
Okay thank you. My second question is around another area of work I think that has moved
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:33:06
on significantly in the last year around trauma -informed practice and I just want us to consider in
terms of this authorities values of enabling leading and caving, how essential do you feel
that trauma -informed practice needs to be rolled out to non social work workforce as
given the nature of the work that we all do in terms of engaging with communities
and as trauma lead would you see that this kind of wider role plays a useful
part of social works function you know that you then you know there are people
in community services or housing or whatever that are then able to feed in
their thoughts and concerns based on a trauma -informed kind of understanding?
Yeah, thank you for your question. I truly support the trauma -informed
Presenting Officer - 1:34:02
practice and the trauma -responsive practice which is almost more important
than you can be informed but not respond in an uninformed way. I really support
that and I am the Lead Free Sothean and I work closely with the trauma officer
that we have in place and she is deliberately council -wide. She's not
based in children's services or a social work service and she is based in a
and has been working with a wide range of council services
who are front facing, who deal with members of the public.
It can only be of benefit to the person experiencing a council service
that that person comes to that with a trauma informed lens
and understands that it might be particularly difficult for someone to engage with the council
for reasons we might never know, but for us to understand that
and respond with empathy and care
and to be really putting forward those principles of choice, empowerment,
time working at the person's own pace, meeting them where they are, all of that
is really important to have a satisfied customer but also to have a service that
is well functioning and reduces the number of complaints and concerns about
that service. So anyone who's engaging with the council I believe in any part
of the council will benefit from a workforce that is trauma -informed and
trauma -responsive and that's something we continue to promote with the use of
that one officer, centrally based, who's working with a range of teams including
in customer services, library staff,
people who don't generally do social work per se,
but work with the public
in what can be really vulnerable moments.
And I think I will continue to promote that
as the lead officer, but also across CMT.
We have a council management team
who are completely committed
to becoming a trauma -informed council
and are really keen to know what each member can play,
what the role of each member is
in that council management team
and not just sitting with social work.
So it's something that I feel really positive about I think we should be good buy -in any slowly and we've lots to learn and lots
To do but we're well in our way on that journey
Thank you very much
Thank you
Thank you for that miss bun
Thank you for your report
But can I also thank you for the briefing that you did as well?
Which I think has helped stimulate the questions that have come on through today
So thank you very much for that and if we could now move to comment
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:36:10
Presenting Officer - 1:36:12
Councillor Jardin.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:36:16
Thank you.
Presenting Officer - 1:36:18
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:36:19
I don't think I can fully express how grateful I am to you for this report and for your amazing
leadership within this area.
So thank you to yourself and to everybody that works in social work services.
I don't think our communities necessarily appreciate how invaluable and how critical
that work is.
I think in preparing for this session, sadly because of work commitments I wasn't able
to attend the briefing, but we had a plethora of questions as you know and we will look
to pick them up again.
A lot I thought, similar to Councillor McIntosh, we maybe want to explore through PPRC in a
particular way, but I think what you have presented here gives a really full picture
of some of the really deep challenges that we face across our communities that aren't
necessarily created by us.
You know, they are created by long -standing issues, by poverty and inequality and continuing
pressures that we have minimal influence over but it's it's really heartening to
see the the work that goes into this so thank you very much
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:37:37
Thank You councillor Jardine if we move to councillor McFarland thank you can I
Carol McFarlane - Councillor - 1:37:43
congratulate the chief officer on a detailed and reasonable report we're
pleased to see all the different departments liaison with each other for
the benefit of adults and children which is a vast improvement from former
practice. Thank you very much. Thank you Councillor McFarland. We will
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:38:00
now move on to Councillor
Brooke Ritchie - Councillor - 1:38:05
Ritchie. Thanks Deputy Provost. I just wanted to start by thanking our Champions Board and
the hard work that they do and that they mentioned in the report and the influence that they
have over our policies and our provision and I think it's really important that they are
right at the heart of everything that we are doing on this and also to who cares for their
partnership which is also really important. Our role in delivering on the promise as corporate
parents as we all sit here as that is really really important and part of that is ensuring
that children and young people are able to stay in their families as a core part of what
the promise is all about and that includes not just what goes on in the social work team
but what goes on right across services in the council, housing, mental health, all of
that contributes to the likelihood of a child
having to be taken into care.
So I'm encouraged to see all of the cross service work
that's mentioned in this and I know there's other stuff
that goes on that isn't in here.
And yeah, we'd be encouraged to see more of that
as we move forward, continuing to ingrain this
and to everything we do.
And as always, grateful to all the staff
for their hard work, for their ongoing focus
on delivering on the promise and on you in CRC.
I know these will continue to be golden threads through everything we do as a council going
forward.
Thank you, Councillor Ritchie.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:39:30
If I can move to Councillor Dugdale.
Thank you, Deputy Provost.
Fiona Dugdale - Councillor - 1:39:35
Thank you again for this report.
Ms Burnet is an excellent report.
Very detailed and also thank you for the briefing which was really, really informative and helped
us all to understand things better.
I think the report really shows us the huge breadth of work that's undertaken in social work and in social care
and as is mentioned the report really reassuring to see the results of the joint inspections
and in particular the strategic inspection of children at risk of harm
and I think these excellent reports are a testament to the hard work of all our social work staff
and our partners in this really important area of work
and I just want to if anyone watching this now or later wants to look at the
findings of those report you go to page 70 of that report I think it's important
that people read that as well. I think there are loads of challenges we know
that in our communities poverty the cost of living barriers to acting mental
health support are all there and I was reading through Miss Burns report and in
her introduction she talked there about no report could ever fully can be the
complexity, pressure and risk that our workforce navigates.
Now the dedication, energy and heart it takes
to be alongside people, we strive for positive outcomes,
often in the most difficult circumstances.
I was trying to write something and I read that
and I thought I can't write any better than that,
so I just picked that up, thank you.
I think again, we've said the trauma responsive response,
the trauma responsive approach we hold dearly to
across the whole of the council is so important
and I'm pleased that that was explored further today. Having empathy, care,
choice and control at heart of all our services is really really really
important. I know we've got challenges in recruitment and I'm so reassured
also by the work we're doing on that and I'm pleased to hear about the work that's
going to be happening at this national level to help get people into posts and
also retain people in these important posts and also that we are
looking after our staff who are doing this hugely complex and really pressured work and
I thank them all. Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:41:50
Thank you Councillor Dugdale. If we move to Councillor Mendez.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:41:54
Thank you chair. I'm going to come in just on the back of Councillor Dugdale's saying
there. So I picked up from the report the trauma responsive approach and usually when
we're speaking about it we speak about it in relation to the clients that use our services
but actually your report has a really strong focus on the impact on our staff and on our teams
and I think that's commendable and I think it's a real sign of really good leadership in my opinion.
Anybody who works on the front line with people who have experienced horrific traumas knows vicarious trauma
and the impact that can have and that creeps up slowly on our staff, you know, and quite often they don't recognise it for years.
and I would like to say we've gone into meetings and we talk about a trauma informed approach
and I think staff always think that we're saying they're not doing enough and that they
need to do more for clients and often when I'm going in and I'm speaking about that,
I've got staff at the heart of that. I want staff to understand trauma and how it impacts
them and how they can protect themselves because they all added you cannae fill for an empty cup.
So I think that shone through for me across your report, across all of the services, supporting
your workforce and combatting that compassion fatigue. I think it's really good. So thank
you so much for that.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:43:14
Thank you, Councillor Menges. And we'll move to Councillor McGinn and we'll finish with
Councillor Acton.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 1:43:22
Thanks, Deputy Provost. It all covers me surprise to anybody and my colleagues that I'm championing
social work colleagues and teams given my own background.
But I really, I would want to say that this report is as a result, a fantastic staff, good leadership,
mentoring and modelling, good behaviour and practising.
I'm mindfully going back to the pandemic when the council responded across every aspect,
every area to make sure that our constituents were looked after and supported and none more so
than our social work teams and staff and that continues right up to this day. Often
when others just forget about what happens behind closed doors or within
kind of private areas, our social workers are the first point of contact on the ground and the first
person that's reaching out a hand to say to some of these young people, and most of
the young people at times, and families and saying, we're going to help you and we're
going to support you. But that takes leadership and it takes mentoring and modelling good
practice that I said previously. I want to commend Ms. Burn for this report and congratulate
staff and I know, I know the team members and all social work staff, nobody's going
be sitting back same job done it just doesn't happen in the social work world
because tomorrow's a bigger challenge and the day after that's a different
challenge but here and now I want to say thank you so much for this report and
thank you for a social work response to the most immediate in our community
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:45:09
thank you counsel again and counsel act are to finish thank you thank you I
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 1:45:12
called me the comments I've made by Councillor Jordan Councillor McGinn and
that just a reminder that the first line of defence are very much so our social work and
social care staff and the most recent storms you saw that when everything closed who were the who
were the staff contact and the most vulnerable families it was our social work social care staff
doing that. I want to particularly personally thank Miss Byrne for her involvement and contribution
as she's a member of the East Lothian IJB and we find her contribution really valuable not just on
the board but also when we have development sessions reminding us what our responsibilities
are as we're making lots of decisions. I think it's also worth reminding
ourselves that in 23 -24 there were 9 ,200 of ferrules and increase of 8 % from the
PV share and the previous year it was 15 % and that's as a result of the rise
in demand of population growth but also people having more complex needs that
needs that level of support. I also think it's really commended that a high
percentage of the ferrules are managed at the first point of contact preventing
unnecessary delays of assessment so that was 83 % of people who contacted the
team managed at the first point of contact at the end of end of quarter one.
Also you should be commended for the strength that were shown in the joint
inspection adult support and practice that there's robust approaches to adult
support and protection inquiries that the team has worked on and when we when
we ask people and you know when people say to me what you know what what do you
spend what does the council spend my council tax on and these are some of the
really important critical things that people's council tax has spent on some of the most
vulnerable children and most vulnerable families. I really welcome that COSLA is organising
a Scotland -wide campaign on fostering and I'll take advantage of the COSLA person being
here, I absolutely welcome that and I also really welcome any materials you can do to
highlight what is it, what do people, what does council spend the council tax on and
getting that message across that these are some of the vital critical services that we
provide and other councils provide across Scotland that make people safe and ensure
that they can live in their homes with dignity and respect, live in a home free of domestic
abuse and be able to thrive in their local communities and do their very best at school.
So thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Actar.
Thank you for that, Ms Byrne.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:47:32
And can you take our thanks back to your staff for this?
We move to the next item which will be the last item before lunch.
Getting excited now.
No need for roll call vote.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:47:48
Are we happy to note that report?
Happy to note.
Agreed.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 1:47:54
Moving to item five.
Item four.
This is the local development plan 2018.

4. East Lothian Local Development Plan 2018: Action Plan Delivery Programme Update 2025 – Report by the Chief Planning Officer

Action plan delivery program update 2025.
This is a report by the Chief Planning Officer.
Mr Dingwall.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:48:12
Presenting Officer - 1:48:14
Thank you Deputy Provost and good morning everyone.
The East Slovene local development plan was adopted in September 2018.
An action programme was an accompanying document that set out how the council proposes to implement that LDP.
Under the recent 2019 Planning Act, new style delivery programs are to be prepared alongside
LDPs. When action programs are reviewed, they are to be recast as delivery programs. The review of
LDP action program falls into this latter category and henceforth our document, i .e. our action
program requires to be referred to as the LDP delivery program. In a 2024 letter the
Chief Planner of the Scottish Government stated that all councils must have an approved delivery
program by the end of March 2025. This was whether it is through a revision to an existing
action program or the preparation of a new delivery program alongside a new LDP. Our
LDP delivery program update 2025 is contained within appendix one of the
report before you and this records progress made in relation to delivery of
policies and proposals that have been made since the adoption of LDP. The
updated program also considers additional future actions required in
order to help with implementation of the plan and just to confirm this update
does not propose any new policies or proposals. It's merely to review the existing policies
and proposals which Council have already approved through LDP -1. In preparing this update, we
engage with key agencies and all responses received are summarised and responded to at
Appendix 2. The summary includes comments from Homes for Scotland who raised some issues
around the format of a document. Some change has been made to our delivery
program as a result of this and the planning service will also reflect on
this feedback when preparing the delivery program that will accompany
LDP2 in the near future. The delivery program highlights that the
strategy of LDP1 has been successfully delivered with the vast majority of
development sites and associated infrastructure already complete or being
delivered. It highlights that it remains a good supply of housing land well beyond the
most relevant benchmark for local housing land requirements set out in MPF 4.
The delivery of a strategy is not without its challenges with employment
land being slow to be delivered and a clear theme being the increase in
infrastructure costs which is having to be met through council budgets. The
financial implications of a growing population supported by new capital
infrastructure and the ongoing associated revenue costs is placed on
very significant challenges on the council which is unsustainable. The
council has continued to raise these issues at a national level and this
remains a significant and ongoing challenge. It is recommended that council
approves the local development plan delivery program update 2025 for
publication and submission to Scottish ministers. I'm joined today by our
planning policy and strategy manager Robin Edgar and Mr. Edgar and myself will
be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Dynwell.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:51:56
Does anyone have any questions?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:52:06
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 1:52:06
If I can go to DPA on the appendix, how are the design principles standards used to incentivise
developers in terms of timescales to achieve planning, consents etc?
And on that, could we build on the exemplar design set long lidry to ensure all developers
Presenting Officer - 1:52:31
achieve the quality of place making within their schemes. Thank you very much
for your question Councillor Menzies and design is a very important part of our
process for new housing developments. I'm glad you mentioned Long Lidry South
that's an example where we've worked very closely with the developer to
hopefully bring a very good and positive environment for new residents.
But clearly that is not what we find as challenges
and part of the issues we face with housing sometimes
developers look for profit when we're looking for
design quality. Our new supplementary guidance
on design standards for new housing areas really helps us
in our quest to get improved design and we will continue
to push for improved designs at every possible opportunity. Thank you. Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:53:29
Thank you Councillor Mendz. We now have Councillor McIntosh. Thank
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:53:30
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:53:32
you. This is quite a broad question but I just
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 1:53:33
wondered whether the process of preparing this document had given you
any sort of good sort of point to good practice or ideas for LDP2 because
obviously like this is really just revising what's been done already and we
are quite well on the road to the next LDP so I just wondered what you'd
learned from this process about things that you may
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:53:56
Presenting Officer - 1:53:56
want to do a bit differently next time. Yes thanks very much for your question
Councillor McIntosh and I think a very important part of our work for
everyone in the council is to review what we do and to learn lessons and
Vatit for example the issue of employment lands and that unfortunately
has not progressed as we hoped it would.
And a lot of that is developers or landowners say that when they put forward sites to be
allocated and then they come forward with an argument that these sites are not viable
for business use, they will not get the return which is necessary for them to develop in
the first place.
So we've learnt important lessons from that and you may be aware we recently went out
for a call for sites for LDP2 and in terms of sites coming forward one of the prerequisites
was we said you need to supply us with information on financial viability and that has been done
and that will be important to us when we review these sites in order to recommend to yourselves
which sites should go forward and it may be more difficult for a developer then to argue
that their site is not viable when so that has been a good lesson for us. Thank you.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:55:18
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:55:19
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:55:23
Thank you. We now have Councillor Gilbert. Thank you chair. I remember a couple of questions.
The first one is on 3 .3 in the report, infrastructure first approach. What impact does Housing Land
pipeline take on revenue implications of continued growth in different
Presenting Officer - 1:55:49
localities? Thank you for your question Councillor Gilbert and we are acutely
aware of the financial challenges which are brought about by new development and
that's not just the cost, the capital cost and providing the infrastructure
required but it's a cost and the ongoing revenue costs of these facilities being used.
So we will be taking that into account when we move forward with choosing our recommending
sites as part of LDP2 and very much we will be following an infrastructure first approach
so we will be looking at where is our spare capacity which could be utilized
for new development there by minimizing cost to the council. Thank you.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:56:41
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:56:43
Councillor Gilbert, do you have another question?
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:57:01
I have another question. I keep getting muted automatically.
Can I go ahead with my question? Yes.
Yeah.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:57:08
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:57:09
Mr. Fair to the reports engagement with key agencies.
Is this a written exercise only or is there potential for meaningful dialogue to consider
impacts on wider infrastructure and service provision?
It seems to be an important point to test discuss joint experiences as part of preparing
this new LDP.
Presenting Officer - 1:57:34
Thanks for your further question Councillor Gilbert.
I completely agree that an absolute key part of developing the LDP2 is meaningful engagement
with key agencies.
And you may remember when we presented our evidence report to Council just after the
the summer recess, we commented on the extensive consultation we've done with key agencies.
It won't be tokenistic, we really want to engage and in fact as earlier today I was
speaking with one of those key agencies which we will be really hoping to utilise our expert
knowledge in finding the best sites and the approach we should take to the new local development
plan. Thank you.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:58:24
Happy with those responses Councillor Gilbert.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 1:58:26
Sorry I'm still getting this problem with getting automatically muted but I'm happy with those answers thank you.
Right thank you.
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 1:58:44
Thank you very much. My question probably won't surprise you that it's around wind developments.
and obviously technology and the whole landscape around renewables has changed
significantly since the LDP one was was provided and I just wondered to what
extent you can say that we're taking those similar to Councillor McIntosh's
previous question how are we taking that forward in terms of our learning and do
do we think we'll be looking at sort of future proofing in LGP2 for any other advanced technologies?
I'm thinking specifically around hydrogen etc that aren't necessarily you know deliverable now.
Presenting Officer - 1:59:33
Yes thank you for your question Councillor Jardin. So you may remember as part of our approach to
renewable energy development we had a capacity study for East Lothian and speaking as a
former case officer, I have to say,
I find that really, really helpful in assisting
with us taking our decisions, but also
then being able to defend our decisions at appeal.
But unfortunately for us, clearly that study
is somewhat of a sign of touch now,
because for example, wind turbines,
they have significantly increased in height.
And our capacity study never could
forecast that so it doesn't cover the large large turbines which were seen
being proposed during the Lammermures. So very much our view is we are
hoping to do a further capacity study and it was very difficult to make much
progress on it because you may remember we had a landscape team of three and two
of them retired at almost exactly the same time so it's just been difficult for
one officer to keep going with all the other work but we now have another
officer in post. I'm actually meeting them later on this afternoon. It'll be
certainly something I'll talk to them about, see how we can bring that forward.
And then looking at that study we also need to be aware of these other
technologies. You mentioned hydrogen but the other one we're under pressure
with just now is battery energy storage systems and we need to see if that can
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 2:01:14
feature in there as well. Thank you. I suppose my point was not just about
the ones that we are aware of now is that how do we capture, and it's probably not just
an issue for East Lothian planners, it'll be planners in general, how do we horizon
scan effectively enough to be able to try and preempt any other technologies that might
come along within what we're planning for is quite a long period of time?
Presenting Officer - 2:01:38
Yes thanks for your further question and that's a key part because these local development
plans are now covering a 10 year period so absolutely we need to horizon scan.
Hydrogen is clearly an emerging technology and we will be taking that
into account along with other technologies and it is quite helpful for
us because obviously National Planning Framework 4 is fairly recent so that
gives us a good indication of the technologies we need to be considering
when it comes to us devising our own policy and
practice for that
Thank you. Thank you
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 2:02:16
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:02:17
Council trotter
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 2:02:21
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:02:22
Thanks, yeah
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 2:02:24
Any it's 11 under flood risk with current flooding and flood risk be considered when assessing whether a new application is suitable
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:02:37
Presenting Officer - 2:02:39
Thanks for your question Councillor Trotter and the simple answer is yes.
Flood risk is an important material consideration and we do take that into account when we determine
planning applications.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:02:51
Thanks for that and just as a wee follow up chair, does that mean then that there will
be no further developments in high risk areas?
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 2:02:58
Presenting Officer - 2:03:02
Thank you for your further question Councillor Trotter. I've probably said this many times in the
chamber before, each planning application needs to be determined on its individual merits so it'd be
through the determination of that application as to whether or not that proposal was acceptable.
But clearly it being in that high -risk area would be a very important consideration in our
determination. Thank you.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:03:28
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:03:31
Councillor McIntosh. Sorry. It's okay. Councillor Finlay. Yes, thank
Jeremy Findlay - Councillor - 2:03:38
you chair. On page 115
paragraph 1 .5 is a link through to the council website on local place plans.
In my ward we got four local place plans being done and they're all doing great
work to try and get these in. On the site there is a paragraph short so it won't
take too long. A research local place plan could have a strong influence on the LDP.
However you should be aware there is no requirement the LDP plans to follow the
aspirations of the local place plan. There may be other factors the council
needs to consider which would stop this from being an option. Could you outline
what those factors might be and the second question is what impact of these
local place plans having on the implementation of the delivery plan?
Presenting Officer - 2:04:36
Okay thank you for your question Councillor Finlay and obviously local
place plans are a new part of our planning system and I agree communities
that are doing a lot of great work and devising their local place plans and hopefully particularly
Mr Edgar and his team have been able to support them with this.
I suppose to answer your question I use an example.
We did a training session for one of the community councils by local place plans in Muspara some
time ago.
One of the community councils asked me a question. They said so if our local place plan
Decides and their community there should be absolutely no
additional housing then that's what the new local development plan should see and
I answered and said no that is not the case the legislation requires us to have due regard
To the local place plan
But that does not mean we absolutely have to adopt that because if you take that to its
You know conclusion there may be many communities who hope there's no further housing within their areas
But we have to take in a range of different factors and for example
The council's already put forward through our evidence report that we will provide a certain number of new sites
So we couldn't just agree to no housing in any community if that was the desire of all
local place plans, which it isn't.
So there's a range of different factors we have to take into account.
Thank you.
Jeremy Findlay - Councillor - 2:06:18
And the impact on the delivery, the implementation of the delivery plan.
The reason why I ask that is that one of the local organisations in my ward are concerned
that they're not going to be able to get their place plan in place.
And is there a deadline for that to meet with the delivery plan?
Presenting Officer - 2:06:43
Yes, thank you for your further questions.
In terms of this programme in front of you, that's based on sites which are already allocated.
Many of these have come forward.
So really the local place plans coming forward will not have too much impact on those because both sites have been agreed.
In terms of moving forward, sorry I just missed the end of your...
Well the particular community group who are trying to do a play is not concerned, they're not going to have enough time.
Thank you for reminding me. Yes, and so we've been clear and all of our against
And training sessions with community councils. You can submit a local place plan at any time
but we've
say a sort of deadline which is now past because
the greatest
impact a local place plan can have is trying to influence local development plan and
Clearly there's a pressure on us to actually progress with the local development plan
So I'm happy to take offline with you this particular situation see if we can accommodate the request
But you appreciate we have to to move forward with local development plan. So I guess it all depends when
When they can bring it forward. Thank you. Thanks
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:08:14
And final questions to council again
I appreciate that Deputy Provost. Mr Dingwall, my question is more about LDP2 and prompted
by the comments you were making in relation to employment land. I have arguably got two
sites in my ward that cause some anxiety at times, but also in terms of local place plans.
Can you remind us, and apologies, it is about LDP2, can you remind us roughly the process from now when we would then be able to start feedback, giving feedback on LDP2 and when that would come to Council?
Presenting Officer - 2:08:59
Thank you for your question. I can assure you those two sites are giving us some anxieties as well.
In terms of where we are, we've got the evidence report with the Scottish government just now.
So we're reviewing that and we'll see whether it sails through or whether we need to do
any additional work.
But that hasn't stopped us on the next stage of the process, which is the preparation of
the new plan of the proposed plan.
And so we have embarked on that.
And one of the first things we are doing
is to review all of the sites which have come forward
through the call for sites.
And as part of that exercise, we're
also reviewing sites which have come forward
through the local place plans.
Because some of the community councils
are proposing certain developments
on certain sites, which we will also assess.
It's very difficult to give you definitive timescales because it is a new process and
we find with the evidence reports stage there are some sort of curve balls thrown at us
which can delay things somewhat unfortunately. Our hope is towards the later part of this
year we'll be able to narrow down and bring a proposed plan forward but that is obviously
subject to different things coming before us. Thank you. Happy with that
Councillor McLeod. Happy Deputy Provost, thanks Mr. Dunwall. Thank you Mr. Dunwall and if we
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:10:37
can move into the debate.
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:10:48
Councillor McLeod. Thanks Deputy Provost. I'd like to thank Mr. Dunwall. I know he's just
the questions but it was more a numbers question so we'll take them offline.
I know it is required that this has to be sent to the Scottish ministers as requested.
A full understanding of infrastructure costs which will be very challenging to the council
which will come through, well it can be met through the council budgets which was stated as
unsustainable. So I think we should be looking at sites that have no infrastructure requirements
are already in place. So I look forward to working with Mr Dingle and his team on the
next LDP. Thank you, Deputy Provost.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:11:31
Thank you, Councillor McLeod. Councillor Manges.
Just a very short one for me, Deputy Provost. So I was really thankful
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:11:37
for the report. I
was glad of the clarification of Councillor Trotter's point around flood risks and that
every case should be taken on its own merits, in effect there being no precedent to be able
to be set within planning because each case is separate and I think this is a
point that we could do with well reminding some of the members on
planning committee that no precedent can be set and just because you agree one
doesn't mean you'll agree any future ones thank you thank you
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:12:08
Councillor Mendez and Councillor Jardine. Thank officers for the report I think
Lyn Jardine - Councillor - 2:12:13
it's been it's been a an invaluable part of my learning on the planning process
still being a relatively new Councillor.
In my history as a community activist I have steadfastly tried to represent the views of
the community as best I can and help them find ways of being able to get their voice
heard and I think the discussion that was had about the local place plan is certainly
a really important difference between LDP1 and LDP2.
And likewise to Councillor Finlay in my ward,
there are a number of plans have come forward.
I'm very mindful, however, that our wards are ones
that are quite well provided for in terms
of social economic resources, in terms of their own skill set
and things like that as well.
So I'm not surprised that these are communities that have come forward with local place plans.
I am concerned that some of the other communities to the west of the county maybe aren't as
well provided for.
And I suppose I would just like to hope that we don't end up with a local development plan
that outweighs because of the difference.
And I think that's one of the crucial areas why local place plans have a place, but they
don't drive the local development plan.
but thanks for the increased learning.
Thank you, Councillor Jardine.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:13:44
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:13:45
The last person to speak will be Councillor At -Bac.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:13:49
Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much to Mr Dingell and to Robin for the report.
I think firstly it's really helpful just to take stock.
I think a lot of the tables are in green and that's things that have happened over the first between one to three years.
So I think we should recognise the significant amount of work that's happened around primary
schools, secondary schools, delivery of an East Linton train station, play spaces and
the level of council housing that have been built over that period of time.
So for me it was helpful just to take stock and to see the level of delivery and the pace
that's happened and that we need to find a way of recognising that.
I hope that in moving forward that there's a recognition of that significant impact that
Slothian is playing not just within our own county but in the growth and the
economy of the whole of Scotland and I hope that Scottish ministers recognise
that and do provide us with more levels of support but also in moving forward I
hope to see better links between the Scottish Government planning and Scottish
Government health and social care departments. These are things that have
raised at NHS Slothian board meetings that when planning are looking at
delivery and across the south east of Scotland that they're mindful of the
health and social care needs of those communities as the populations grow.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:15:02
Thank You councillor. So we now need to go to a roll call vote so if I could
ask the clerk to take that vote please.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:15:13
Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:15:27
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:15:28
agree Councillor Gilbert proof and just to know that council Hampshire has left
a meeting Councillor Jordan prove cancer McFarlane again agree thank you
McGuire agreed can't so Macintosh agreed can't so McLeod agreed can't so mains
ease agreed can't so Richie great can't so trotter
through and can't so York's do agreed and that's a good honestly thank you for
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:15:58
that so we've now been going for just over two hours with your indulgence I'd
like to take a call for a lunch break at this point so if we could agree to take
a lunch break till one o 'clock come back at one and if I could ask the clerk to

4. East Lothian Local Development Plan 2018: Action Plan Delivery Programme Update 2025 – Report by the Chief Planning Officer

Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:16:17
Good afternoon everybody, welcome back. Hope everybody's had time to
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:16:19
refresh and
ready to go so if we can start with the next item. Thank you Deputy Provost and just to confirm
that all councillors that were here at the end of the first session have
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:16:35
returned to the meeting. Item 5 is the review of standing orders and this is a
by the Executive Director for Council Resources.
Ms Bana.

5. Review of Standing Orders – Report by the Executive Director for Council Resources

Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:16:43
Thank you Deputy Provost.
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:16:46
The report before you seeks your approval of the proposed changes to the Standing Orders
Scheme of Administration and Scheme of Delegation set out as track changes at appendices 1 to
3 and to the addition of the Council Officer Protocol as a Standing Orders supporting document
attached at Appendix 4.
The Council's standing orders are reviewed on an ongoing basis, with regular reports
on proposed changes being presented to Council.
I won't cover every proposed change within the review as members have been provided with
the detail by email, but in summary, the changes to the standing orders relate mainly to the
arrangements for the operation of the hybrid committees meetings, a change to the voting
process, clarification on declarations of interest and clarifications around the requirements
to change decisions of councils within a six month period.
I'd also like to verbally propose one minor amendment which was not picked up in the circulated
draft at standing order 5 .3 .1 to align the amendment with the proposed at 4 .3 .1 regarding
the definition of clear days to exclude weekends and public holidays.
This would effectively mean that the deadline for motions would be seven clear days in advance
of the meeting rather than the 11 given the change in definition of clear days.
The proposed changes to the scheme of administration include the provision of substitutes at the
autism governance committee, policy and performance review committee and police, fire and community
safety scrutiny committee, clarification of substitutes at the joint consultative committee
and additional duties for the planning committee.
There are also proposed changes to the scheme of delegation, including additions to the
delegated powers of the Chief Planning Officer and the Head of Infrastructure, as well as
changes relating to planning control and proper officer appointments.
In addition, it is proposed to add the Councillor -Officer Protocol as a standing order supporting document,
which has been drafted specifically for an East Lothian context, and this document would
replace the supporting document D standards commission for Scotland advice, note for Councillors
on distinguishing between their strategic role and operational work.
The advice note can still be accessed by members on the standards commission website.
If approved, all changes would come into force from tomorrow, the 26th of February, 2025.
I'm happy to answer any questions that members may have.
Thank you for that.
Does anyone have any questions?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:19:27
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:19:33
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:19:42
I was just wondering how the changes to the rules about being core if hybrid connections
are lost would work in relation to obviously had a little bit of history where the whole
system has gone down.
and so if that was to happen and there were enough people in the chamber to be
quoted without all those people would all those people just be shut out the
meeting and the meeting proceed in that case? So we would try we would take an
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:20:05
adjournment practically we would take an adjournment and try to reconnect members
and you know and see if the phone connection worked and so we would always
try to accommodate members if if we were unable to find a resolution then we
could, if agreed by the provost or the convener, we could proceed as long as we had enough
members in the room, that would be an option that would be open to the community.
Okay, but you would adjourn and try and sort it out first.
And would it be open to whoever was chairing the meeting to decide, even if it was quorum,
to wait until everyone could join?
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:20:39
I'm thinking, I understand why you can't necessarily wait for individual members whose own internet
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:20:46
has gone down, but if the actual council system fails, that is
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:20:48
supposed to be providing the
I feel like there's a difference in those two situations and so I'm looking to get some
assurances that in that latter situation members and by implication all the people who voted
for those members to be there and you know representing them would still be able to be
you know have their voices heard democratically.
I think absolutely if there was a council system failure we would
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:21:12
adjourn and we would
I think we've had a couple of instances lately and we've always tried to take that time and
find the solution and allow people to either come in remotely. Ultimately it would be a
convener decision if we proceeded by. I think we would support and try to ensure that everyone
was able to participate.
Thank you.
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:21:38
Happy with that Councillor McInerney. We now have Councillor Menzies.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:21:40
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:21:43
Thank you chair. So on 6 .1 of the report requiring chairs to be present to allow them to chair
meeting and in relation to me it could be that councillors were worker care
commitments are then precluded from being a chair going forward and is this
being suggested because of the flaws that councillor McIntosh has mentioned
that we've had in the system
thank you thank you for your questions there are clearly additional
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:22:09
responsibilities that do come along and with with cheating the system and itself
as you know, requires the screen in the room to help you work out your ordering of speakers,
etc. We are proposing to move to a teams -based system and we will look to see if we can use
that system in a different way to allow that remote chairing. But I think with the system
that we have right now in place, my advice would always be that I would suggest that
the conveners are in the room and I think even with the no matter what system I use
my advice would always be that a convener should have a clerk, a monitoring officer,
a legal advisor beside them. I think that does help them support better meetings.
I don't disagree with you at all on that. I just think that in today's
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:23:01
council I think
we are underrepresented in a few areas and I wonder if that means that we would increase
that under representation because people with caring commitments if you can't, like today
I've taken a day's holiday to be here, if you can't do that then does that take you
away from being a chair?
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:23:24
I think we do, I don't know if others want to comment, but I think we do take steps to
ensure we are flexible and try and encourage as much representation. We do for example
have the hybrid system for other meetings. We don't start meetings till 10 o 'clock.
We do not schedule meetings or try not to schedule meetings within recess periods to
support school holidays etc. So we do take steps to try to support as many people being
able to carry out their role as Councillor as we can.
Thank you. Just on point two of the same part, again it's talking
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:24:02
about the chair and scrutiny committees
and if the chair isn't able to be present in person then the deputy chair should take over
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:24:10
and if not it may then be another councillor that's asked to do it. Particularly in scrutiny committees
do we feel that the public may see that as a mark in their own homework?
I think for scrutiny committees it would always be expected that it would be an opposition
councillor that would chair those meetings if the convener or the deputy convener which
as you know right now our opposition councillors are unable to attend in person and a vote
has to be carried out. It is a decision for the committee around who is chair. The standing
orders that are quite explicit that cabinet members can also not be members of scrutiny
committees but obviously administration members do form part of that committee but it would
be a committee decision around who chairs that committee meeting, not an officer decision.
Thank you and I've only got one last wee bit on it. So amendments are
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:25:08
only accepted by
the convenor in its quotes under exceptional circumstances or given to the clerk by noon
the day before. However, in a further section down the guidance seems to accept that simply
being at the meeting and speaking even with a pre -prepared speech could be seen as exceptional
circumstances. So in order to build confidence with the public, should we as a council set
what we mean by exceptional circumstances?
Generally in local government, in order to have no definition of
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:25:42
exceptional circumstances,
there are in other parts of local government and so within planning
considerations or inflation appeals there are defined situations where and
exceptional circumstances are detailed. In many ways the provisions deliberately
built in and to allow that convener the flexibility to hear items that do
appear that are of genuine urgency and exception is conveners discretion
I think from an officer perspective if the convener was asking me I'd ensure that the
convener had taken into account the public interest test, was it a legal matter that
we're considering, could it be considered another meeting, so I guess we would have
that discussion but ultimately it is a convener's decision to make. What the convener does have
to do is set out that reason and that justification for ruling on exceptional circumstances and
that is recorded in the minute. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Thank you. We have Councillor
Gilbert. I'm going to refer to appendix 4 3 .3 where it says
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:26:55
Councillors have the responsibility
to the electorate and should therefore represent the views of local residents fairly and their
prejudice. Could I ask for some clarity on this please as this can be mistaken
for what I must represent the views of individuals and in some cases this would
not be appropriate or possible. Thanks for the question Councillor Gilbert. The
wording that we've used although not exactly the same is based on guidance
from both the Scottish Government and the Local Government
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:27:27
Association.
The Councillor's Code of Conduct is really clear Section 6 .2 that you as a
councillor do not need to represent every single individual that approaches
you. It will be a judgment call, there may be reasons why it's not appropriate or
you feel you are not able or willing to to progress a concern or a complaint. So
I guess just there's reassurance although we have this guidance in
place and it certainly shouldn't you shouldn't read that to interpret that and
you must and represent every single view that comes forward and as I said both
the code and the guidance on the code are clear on that. Thank you for clearing that up.
Okay thank you. We now have Councillor Trotter.
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 2:28:22
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:28:30
Start again. Mind you, if I can remember what it says. Mind you it's
Tom Trotter - Councillor - 2:28:33
along the same lines because there's a reference to when dealing with word related matters, the guidance appears to indicate that engagement should be with all word councillors. What's the sort of specific additional responsibilities if we're referring to word matters?
Hayley Barnett-Monitoring Office - 2:28:50
The reference within the guidance, additional responsibilities would mean the council leader,
the provost, the cabinet spokesperson and the word in there is not that an individual
would get more information on a word matter, the intention is to highlight that the individual
with additional responsibilities may have either wider knowledge, they may have received
a briefing in advance because of their specific role rather than an individual or ward matter.
Thank you.
If there are no other questions, thank you.
Does anyone have any comments?
I am just going to start off, put out my misery first, I am going to support this so I am
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:29:42
not arguing in any way against that but I think we should be mindful going forward that
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:29:48
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:29:49
we keep an eye on fairness and good representation and that's good representation across the
board. I think if we look around we can see that we are not fully representative of all
the communities that we serve and I don't think we help that by putting barriers in
the way to representing people. So while I understand that that has to be balanced with
responsibility and we all have a responsibility to do the work that we're
being paid for we should also be mindful that some of us are chairing committees
and are not getting additional payments for that and are doing that just as part
of the role. I am lucky enough to be able to take leave to come in and do
this in person if my work situation changes I may not be lucky enough and
that would put me in the position of having to stand down as chair which
means you'll lose a woman representing on some committees. So I think we need to be
mindful of that. I'm really happy to hear that we're going to keep it under review.
I think it is a systematic issue. I think when we first started we didn't have the issues
that we have now because we were using a different system and the use of this system has clearly
highlighted that there are shortcomings in it, which I think is good for us going forward.
and that's all just if we could all keep a mind and ultimately what we all want is
good solid representation for our communities. Thank you. Thank you
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:31:15
Councillor Menses. We now have Councillor Acton. Thank you just to thank Hayley and her team for the
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:31:20
changes that have been put forward I think some of them are changes as a
lot of the times we when I started and the out of 22 Councillors there was only
two women there was myself and Margaret I was only person with two children under
age of five so I think that our representation has really considerably improved. We've got
40 % gender balance and throughout my time I've always found that the council has been
supportive to me in my role and we want to continue doing that to support all women that
have got caring responsibilities or other responsibilities to be able to carry out their
roles because we need to make sure that we're representative of the local communities that
we represent but also are able to carry out our roles and this document will help us to
ensure we are able to carry out our roles as effectively as possible and have that level
of scrutiny and the PPRC and auditing governance have always had opposition councillors as
chairs which gives that reassurance of that transparency and openness and accountability
that we have always had.
So I welcome those and also particularly that it will be reviewed should we need to change
it or as we go along that we will have the opportunity to do that.
Thank you, Councillor.
We now have Councillor McIndosh.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:32:29
Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:32:30
I hadn't been going to come in.
I have got the microphone.
Shona McIntosh - Councillor - 2:32:33
It has worked the first time.
Me and Councillor Trotter were having a competition as to who could mess it up the most.
I know I am losing to you.
I hadn't been going to come in.
Just off the back of those last two comments, I think it is good to consider how we can
make the Council as representative as possible.
I will support these as well.
I think that actually the ability to nominate a substitute on a number of these committees
is a really positive measure, thank you for bringing that forward.
I think we could go further on this, I think we could also be talking about whether it's
possible to do proxy votes.
I think that if you look at what happened this morning, the agenda got rearranged.
I found out as I was getting on my bike to take my two children to school that I was
possibly going to have to present these motions as soon as I got here, get off my bike and
do that.
If one person has the ability to change the agenda and other people don't, then I think
that that is a real disparity in power. I have more than once had to miss a vote
because I've had to go home and pick up my children and so we're still not
enabling that level of representation if that's the things that
some people in the council are facing but others can just change the agenda to
suit their other commitments then I think that that's a bit of a problem. And
the other thing that I think we should really think about is other councils
have the ability for opposition councillors to ask questions of the
administration regularly and we don't have that. I think it got introduced in
one term and taking out the following term and I would like to see us talk about that
as well for the future so I'm just going to find those ideas out there and say that while
these changes are welcome I think there are other ones that we should be keeping under
review as well.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:34:03
Thank you for that Councillor McIntosh. There is nobody else wishing to speak so if we can
now move to the right.
Thank you Deputy Provost and then just to advise that we need two thirds support of
the members present to pass the changes to standing orders.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:34:17
Councillor Aichter.
Agreed.
Councillor Bennett.
Agreed.
Councillor Dugdale.
Agree.
Councillor Findlay.
Agreed.
Councillor Forrest.
Agreed.
Councillor Gilbert.
Approve.
Councillor Jardin.
Agree.
Councillor MacFarlane.
Agree.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:34:35
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:34:35
Councillor McGinn.
Agreed.
Councillor McGuire.
Agreed.
Councillor McIntosh.
Agreed.
Councillor McLeod.
agreed. Councillor Menzies. Agreed. Councillor Ritchie. Agreed. Councillor Trotter. Approved.
And Councillor Yorkston. Agreed. And that's approved unanimously. Thank you for that.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:34:56
If we could move to the next item of business. Item 6 is the nomination of the
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:35:03
vice convener and the renewal of the term of office for councillor members of

6. Nomination of the Vice-Convener and Renewal of the Term of Office for Councillor Members of the East Lothian Integration Joint Board – Report by the Executive Director for Council Resources

the East Lothian IJB. The report seeks approval of the nomination of
Council of Achtar is the vice convener of the IJB for the period 1st of April 2025 to the 31st of March 2027.
This is in accordance with the scheme of integration which stipulates that the rules of convener and vice convener should alternate between the Council and the NHS every two years.
The appointment of the new convener and vice convener will be confirmed by the IJB at its meeting on the 20th of March.
The report also seeks approval of the renewal of term of office on the IJB for Councillors
Aichter, Jardine and Macfarlane.
This is a requirement every three years.
These appointments will take effect from the 23rd of June.
As Councillor Findlay was only appointed to the IJB in October 2023, his term of office
does not require renewal at this time.
Does anyone have any questions?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:35:55
Any comments?
If we could move to the roll call vote.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:36:11
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:36:23
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:36:23
Councillor McLeod. Agreed.
Councillor Ritchie. Sorry, Councillor Menzies.
Agreed.
Councillor Ritchie. Agreed.
Councillor Trotter. Approved.
And Councillor Yorkston. Agreed.
That's approved unanimously.
Thank you. And if we can move to the next item.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:36:45
Item 7 is the East Losing Council and Queen Margaret University Joint Venture
with a proposal to amend the Articles of Association.

7. East Lothian Council/Queen Margaret University Joint Venture: Proposal to Amend Articles of Association – Report by the Executive Director for Place

This is a report by the Executive Director for Police.
Ms Molloy, would you like to take the report?
Yes, thank you. Afternoon everybody.
The purpose of the report before you is to provide an update on an amendment to Article 5 of the Articles of Association of the Joint Venture Company between East Lothian Council and Queen Margaret University,
and also to consent to a variation to the joint venture agreement between the Council and the University.
By way of very quick background, in April 2022, the Council and the University concluded a complex suite of legal documents to enable delivery of the joint venture structure and thus the Edinburgh Innovation Hub.
One of the legal documents was a joint venture agreement.
That joint venture agreement provided for an equitable representation between the two
organizations by way of two directors from ELC and two directors from QMU.
The joint venture also provided that the number of directors must be four and in the event
where the number of directors is below four, the directors may not act.
In February of this year, one of the JV directors representing the university interests had to resign from the board with essentially as soon as possible.
And after seeking the appropriate legal advice and reviewing the documents, a board meeting on the 6th of February agreed to do the following in order to address the director's makeup.
Next to the report is a written resolution which seeks to amend the Article 5.
Essentially it does not change the equitable representation of both organisations, which is just to want to underscore that.
But rather it allows if there is a vacancy or an imbalance in the number, then the directors may continue to act and thus allow continuity of business.
I would say also again to underscore that the voting rights are not amended by this,
i .e. it's not ever going to be a one to two, two to one situation as each director has the capability
of exercising two votes on behalf of an absentee directors. In addition, the joint venture agreement
had some legacy wording which was inserted at the kind of founding part of the joint venture
structure and I've noted that in 3 .6 of the report whereby it put an obligation in both
parties to appoint two directors no later than six months after the completion date.
Now that we're a couple of years in into the successful operation of the joint venture,
clearly this wording is obsolete and it was agreed that in order to support the change in the
articles the joint venture agreement would be varied to put obligations on each organisation
that in the event there is a vacancy and that the organisations will use all means as reasonably
practicable to fulfil that appointment. So essentially that allows that alignment of
the articles and the principal legal document and thus continuity of business. And I've
also noted that subject to the outcome of this meeting today that we have the QMU director's
formal resignation ready to be intimated happy to take any questions. Thank you
for that Ms Malloy. Does anyone have any questions?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:40:24
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:40:28
Councillor McLeod. Thanks Deputy Provista. Ms Malloy, I heard what you said about the
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:40:33
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:40:34
directors it's a 2 -2, 2 for the
Actually, I need to make up the joint venture agreement for that. I don't know if Carlo's on it.
I think he has the JV, but the casting vote, here's Carlo coming in. Do you have the JV to hand there?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:40:56
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:40:57
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:40:58
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:41:02
Can you hear me just to double check? Yes, certainly. Thank you. In
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:41:04
terms of the joint venture
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:41:06
agreement, there is no casting vote in the provisions. If it is an equal part, there are
Resolution provisions set out within the GV to take it back through each
Organization to find a resolution before we can to go forward with the termination
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:41:29
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:41:29
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:41:31
As our it's a
Kenny McLeod - Councillor - 2:41:33
Joint venture so is it a 50 -50 split in?
Cash terms when it comes to the council's input in QM news input
No, if you recall, and I would be, I mean, it's been many years, Councillor McLeod, since
I first took all these legal documents through the council. So this is a good test of memory.
But essentially, if you recollect, and for others who perhaps may not as well briefed
since the passage of time is that the council obviously invested £10 million in the project.
You recall 4 million was for the acquisition of the land and 6 million for the bricks and mortar for the construction of the hub.
And the university did not contribute a financial contribution.
And thus, within the terms of the joint venture agreement, the council has that priority right to, once the profit share,
I suppose, comes good to get the first call on that profit share,
both through the operational success of the hub and the disposal
of the wider land known as the Edinburgh Innovation Park.
But there's no essential right for the university to get a financial
kind of reimbursement because they never put any money in.
And that was obviously, as I'm sure you'll appreciate,
one of the critical negotiations at that time to safeguard the council's
investment and of course the public powers.
Thanks Deputy Prime Minister. Thank you.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:43:11
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:43:19
Councillor Mentis. For the last minute Chair. I've noticed from the
Lee-Anne Menzies - Councillor - 2:43:24
paper that it has
I see the sense in allowing the work to carry on if a director resigns.
If we came down to the situation where it's one and one,
what is the scrutiny behind that and where's the sense checking of it?
In terms of the decision making?
Yeah, so four people in the room, you know,
and you can make a bit of backwards and forwards, two people in the room.
I'm thinking of personal situations, if one person is quite a strong personality, it can mean that the other person can go along with it.
And I'm just wondering, do we have a backup on that? Is there any further scrutiny or sense checking that happens?
So I suppose, I mean, I suppose to go to kind of the foundations of why we set up, I suppose, a joint venture agreement,
because of the nature of the project, there was an argument that it was supposed for efficiency purposes,
and I suppose from a governance perspective, that's why it was taken out, I suppose, of the council governance,
albeit you'll appreciate that there is regular reporting up through the Members' Library on all activities associated with the project.
In terms of if it was, and I'm happy to say we've never actually had that situation,
but you're completely correct to raise the point that if it was essentially a one on one,
board papers are circulated well in advance. And let's take, for example, it was myself and
Councillor Hampshire couldn't make it. I mean, obviously, I would have discussions with
Councillor Hampshire around the nature of the board and in terms if there was any critical
decision making in that. Needless to say, I always see work alongside colleagues with the council who
perhaps are contributed to some parts of this project to ensure that we are delivering on the
council's objectives and vision. So it's not taking in an isolationist way. It's in with
collaboration with my co -director, Councillor Hampshire, but obviously within the context
of the wider council being very focused on delivering the council's needs, objectives,
and visions here. But also just to collaborate with the university and ensure that jointly that
We are doing what we sought to do, which has been captured in many different formats, not least many council policy papers, but also within the framework of the city deal, who provided 30 million pounds of funding.
There's also a separate reporting and governance process there that I have to go through.
So there are checks and balances out with that in terms of that decision making.
And I would reassure that I wouldn't autonomously make a decision should that come before me without taking.
that recourse and advice from the appropriate people within the council
and indeed if it calls upon the city deal as well thank you thank you thank
you see the nobody else wishing to ask questions if we could move in anyone
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:46:29
wishing to make a comment thank you thank you and firstly this is a
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:46:38
significant project or the ten million pound investment in the in the muscle
award and we know where we've got the highest levels of poverty and deprivation so it's
a really important project and I think for today to ensure there's a lot of continuity
of business is really really important so I'll be supporting this today.
Ms Molloy has produced numbers of papers for Members Library, it might be useful to share
those appropriate to help individuals that might not have been involved in the project
from the very beginning but it's great to see the level of progress that's going to
be made and we have to make sure that there's continuity and allowing that
that project to complete. Thank you councillor. Anyone else wishing to
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:47:15
speak?
No? If we could then move to the roll call vote. Thank you.
Councillor Oster. Agreed.
Councillor Bennett. Agreed.
Councillor Dugdale. Agree.
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:47:29
Councillor Findlay. Agreed.
Councillor Forrest. Agreed.
Councillor Gilbert. Approve.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:47:34
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:47:35
Councillor Jardine. Agree.
Councillor MacFarlane. Agreed.
Councillor McGinn. Agreed.
Councillor Maguire. Agreed.
Councillor McIntosh. Agreed.
Councillor MacLeod. Agreed.
Councillor Mendz. Agreed.
Councillor Ritchie. Agreed.
Thank you.
If we can move to item 10.
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:47:58
Item 10 is a submission to the members lively service between the 25th of November and the
Lel Gillingwater - Clerk - 2:48:03
9th of February.

10. Submissions to the Members’ Library Service: 25 November 2024 – 9 February 2025 – Report by the Executive Director for Council Resources

Does anyone have any questions?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:48:08
Comments?
Councillor Lachter.
Thank you, chair.
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:48:17
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:48:18
Shamin Akhtar - Councillor - 2:48:19
I want to recognise item 1025 which is lease of the park at Athol Stainford to commend
the members of the local community that have been working hard to generate income to develop
the park and just to have that noted.
Thank you for that, Councillor Aptah.
There is no need for a vote so are we happy to note that paper?
Andy Forrest - Councillor - 2:48:39
Thank you for that.
That's the end of all the public business.
we will now move into private.
Sorry if I could ask the clerk to...